Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO

  • From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:37:28 -0400

Jamal,

Please send questions regarding policy, licensing and FSF opinion to a generic 
FSF mailing list or directly to someone in the parts of FSF who works on such 
things. I am not a licensing expert and there is no difference in our policies 
regarding such things in the accessibility arena and our more generic 
mainstream statements. 

I work on getting free software projects to include accessibility in their 
development and I try to find people to retrofit accessibility support into 
programs that do not comply with the accessibility API mostly on the Gnome 
desktop. I don't have any authority regarding FSF licensing policy nor do I 
spend much time thinking about it as we've people far more expert in these 
matters than I will ever be. So, sending me such inquiries is a misdirection of 
your query.

As for a published opinion on Oracle v. Google, I don't know that anyone at FSF 
has written an opinion piece on the case yet. As a matter of course, though, we 
oppose all software patents and (of course) the enforcement thereof. Hence, I 
would assume that we oppose Oracle in this case but as I don't state opinion on 
any matters other than those explicitly regarding accessibility, you should ask 
someone in a less specific part of FSF.

HH,
cdh





M, Jamal Mazrui wrote:

> A few weeks ago, I looked on the FSF site for some kind of opinion on the 
> Oracle suit against Google over Android/Java, and was surprised not to find 
> one.  FSF tends to have opinions on big issues in the field related to 
> software copyrights and patents.  If FSF does have an opinion on this, would 
> you point us to a link?
> 
> Also, did you ever get an authoritative answer on whether GNU will support 
> accessibility-related development projects that use library components that 
> are licensed under the Eclipse Public License?
> 
> Jamal
> 
> 
> On 10/11/2010 9:58 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>> Oracle may not "own" mysql and definitely does not own the version forked 
>> from the code base into a separate line of development entirely outside of 
>> Oracle.
>> 
>> Oracle is claiming that they "own" the mysql copyright. If *anyone* in the 
>> wild contributed as little as a single line of code to the project, even if 
>> they did so anonymously, they also own part of that copyright. Also, if 
>> anyone working at Sun had not signed an assignment of copyright agreement, 
>> they too own part of the copyrighted source code. Thus, although they claim 
>> they will change the license, they may not e ale to do so in a manner that 
>> would hold up in a courtroom.
>> 
>> Oracle can add proprietary and very pretty UI elements that call into mysql 
>> to their heart's content. These will, knowing Oracle's track record, not be 
>> FLOSS and, also following Oracle's history, will, at best, probably be only 
>> partially accessible.
>> 
>> The only accessibility engineers remaining at Oracle are Peter and the 
>> accessibility people working on OpenOffice, another FLOSS project that 
>> Oracle is trying to make proprietary. Regarding the office suite, Oracle can 
>> make a proprietary fork and stop contributing to the FLOSS version. To this 
>> end a group of people have banded together to form the Document Foundation 
>> and have rebranded OpenOffice.org as LibreOffice. We at FSF/GNU see 
>> LibreOffice accessibility as essential to the future of an accessible planet 
>> and will be involved at some level in the new fork.
>> 
>> cdh
>> 
>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 4:14 AM, Kerneels Roos wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Everyone,
>>> 
>>> I read some blogs on the recent Oracle World and Java One conference held 
>>> by Oracle. It seems they are, as we expected, a much more business savvy 
>>> company than Sun was. The former Java One confernces were very much 
>>> developer minded, while the recent one presented by Oracle gave the 
>>> indication that they are far more business minded and are working 
>>> strategically towards set goals.
>>> 
>>> Very interesting development is their plans for MySQL which they apparently 
>>> also own now, in particular their plans to develop very nice user 
>>> interfaces for managing MySQL databases so that there will be greater 
>>> adoption of it in the Windows + Visual Studio world. Their ideal would be 
>>> to have MySQL integrate directly with Visual Studio, but I'm digressing...
>>> 
>>> Since Oracle wants to make profit mostly (or only) and maintain a nice 
>>> public profile, it would be up to the stake holders in Java Accessibility 
>>> to convince them that it is indeed in their best interest to give it a high 
>>> priority. If by reasoning about it we can come to the conclusion that there 
>>> is no real advantage for them in investing in furthering Java Accessibility 
>>> then another route needs to be perseued. Such another route might be an 
>>> open source development of the JAB, a third party development of the JAB.
>>> 
>>> We want access to be free, but if for a small price you could get an up to 
>>> date JAB that makes Java extremely accessible then that is better than the 
>>> alternative of no, or out dated access.
>>> 
>>> I believe that if one can convince a company nicely that accessibility is 
>>> important then they will do a good job at it, as aposed to it being a 
>>> legally enforced thing, or a pressured thing. I agree with another person 
>>> on this list, think it was Tylor, that asking people nicely to change their 
>>> web sites RE accessible captchas for example is far better than screaming 
>>> at them over email. All the more so if you can give them food for thought 
>>> in terms of numbers.
>>> 
>>> If it's a better idea to have foundations for the blind interacting with 
>>> Oracle about this then we as the community need to first approach our local 
>>> and international foundations. There is so much that can be done, like 
>>> pettitions, fund raising, awareness, pressure from the general public, 
>>> pressure from M$, pressure from their clients that are far removed from 
>>> accessibility issues but that do have a morral concions.
>>> 
>>> Java is a great language to program in if you are blind due to it's verbose 
>>> nature and well thought out standard libraries. Oracle's plans (to my best 
>>> judgement) for Java is long but over. They are also planning more JDK 
>>> releases by spreading future features over the various releases. On top of 
>>> that, there are millions of lines of legacy Java that will have to be 
>>> maintained for many years to come, so a career as a Java Programmer will 
>>> remain a good choice for blind programmers regardless, but it would be so 
>>> much better if it is certain that Oracle will strive to improve Java 
>>> accessibility onwards.
>>> 
>>> So what would be the next step?
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Kerneels
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/11/2010 3:11 AM, Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO wrote:
>>>> Hi Listers,
>>>> 
>>>> I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing 
>>>> government contracts in the United States would have some affect on all 
>>>> this. I have asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very 
>>>> much because there is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced 
>>>> Java programmer so maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know 
>>>> we use Struts at my building for creation of web projects. If I have just 
>>>> made a fool of myself, it's not the first time and won't be the last. 
>>>> (grin).
>>>> 
>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>>> 
>>>> hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol
>>>> 
>>>> or hound,or pummel,  or...
>>>> 
>>>> elf
>>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>>>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>>>> for blind computer users and programmers
>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Sina Bahram"<sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice of
>>>>> reason has made itself known.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into actually
>>>>> not abandoning it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Take care,
>>>>> Sina
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away.  It's time
>>>>> to get people to get active and start emailing and
>>>>> calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away we lose what
>>>>> accessibility was there.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ken
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm Dragon
>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux
>>>>> accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun.
>>>>> It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software decisions,
>>>>> to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far
>>>>> far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid of
>>>>> Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a
>>>>> fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to win
>>>>> their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who
>>>>> they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open
>>>>> source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still
>>>>> alive and well after all.
>>>>> Storm
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Registered Linux user number 508465:
>>>>> http://counter.li.org/
>>>>> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
>>>>> http://www.stormdragon.us/
>>>>> Get yourself a Frostbox:
>>>>> http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> oh know,
>>>>> i wish its just a rumor.
>>>>> if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.
>>>>> 
>>>>> regards,
>>>>> prateek agarwal.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui<empower@xxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
>>>>>> I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to discontinue
>>>>>> support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is planned).  I
>>>>>> would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If anyone has information
>>>>>> regarding this topic, please share.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jamal
>>>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> --
>>> Kerneels Roos
>>> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
>>> Skype: cornelis.roos
>>> 
>>> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .
>>> 
>>> "The Strawberry Jam Law:
>>>  The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
>>>   -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.
>>> 
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at 
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>> 
>> 
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>> 

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