Hi. You know, the more i explored Open komodo and Komodo edit, the more i fell in love with them. Having said that, I realise that GW micro has made a genuine attempt to make mozilla based products accessible, hence giving me the chance to explore the potential of these great tools. I did not even have to consider writing window eyes set files for them because they were so accessible out of the box, and i must admit that I was pleasantly surprised. Now, if intellisence were included as part of the products' development, they would really go places, not to mention build and debug capabilities, which might induce the folks at microsoft to be on their toes when it comes to the non .net languages. Cheers! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 6:11 AM Subject: Re: Commodo
I don't understand why you are so dismissive without truly making an effort to understand the program. I just explored the menu system and noticed commands and hot keys for managing bookmarks and navigating code. Wouldn't you expect that the company that has been the main distributor of Perl for years would include ways of navigating Perl code in its IDE for dynamic languages? It appears that you hurriedly look for faults to report and reluctantly take time for finding good to appreciate. Jamal On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Octavian Rasnita wrote:Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 22:47:58 +0200 From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Commodo Oh yes, for a benefit. But I haven't seen Commodo's benefits until now.In fact I've seen some of them I've already announced, but I still haven't found those hotkeys for defining bookmarks, and jumping to them... and a fewother things I already told about. Which are those features for working with a perl program? That I can jump from a subroutine to the next one? This can be made very easy with TextPad with a simple find, because I never bothered to make a script or something that does that. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:39 PM Subject: Re: Commodo > It seems that you have choices since you mentioned other synthesizers. > You are choosing JAWS 6 and its flaws over a later JAWS version and a > synthesizer you don't like as much. > > Jamal > On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Octavian Rasnita > wrote: > >> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:08:35 +0200 >> From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx> >> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: Re: Commodo >> >> I don't want to use Jaws with an english sinthesizer, but as I said, I >> have>> no other choice, because in the first time I need a sinthesizer that >> can >> speak very fast and clear, and there is no such sinthesizer for >> romanian.>> >> I've wrote FS and they told me about those settings in Jaws. I've made >> them, >> but without succeeding to make Eloquence speak exactly like in Jaws 6. >> >> >> Octavian >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 9:21 PM >> Subject: Re: Commodo >> >> >> > Hi Octavian, >> > Have you reported the problem to FS, and if so, what has been the>> > response? FS may, indeed, decide the number of customers helped is >> > not>> > worth the development cost, but it may not be aware that this is a >> > problem >> > significant enough to deter a user from upgrading from JAWS 6. >> > >> > I'm curious how often users want to read another language with an >> > English >> > synthesizer. If that works best for you, so be it, but if this is>> > essentially a hack, then it seems unfair to suggest the problem is >> > with >> > JAWS support of foreign languages, and to expect application >> > developers>> > to>> > support JAWS 6 because of this aspect. Being unfamiliar with how >> > blind >> > users of other languages generally operate, I hope these are >> > reasonable>> > questions to ask. >> > >> > Jamal >> > On >> > Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Octavian Rasnita wrote: >> > >> >> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 08:38:18 +0200 >> >> From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx> >> >> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >> Subject: Re: Commodo >> >>>> >> Well, I guess they don't really care about this issue, because I >> >> think>> >> there >> >> are no many customers that need to read a text in romanian language >> >> with >> >> the >> >> english synthesizer.>> >> Unfortunately there is no a similar synthesizer in romanian >> >> language.>> >> There >> >> is one that works pretty fast named WinTalker but it sounds very >> >> robotic >> >> and >> >> it doesn't work fast enough. There is also one named Ivona with a >> >> romanian>> >> voice named Carmen, a very good quality voice, but which is too >> >> less >> >> responsive to be used for day by day tasks, and if it use with a >> >> high>> >> speed,>> >> it doesn't sound very well, and there is also a Dolphin hardware >> >> synth>> >> that >> >> some users like, but I don't really like it either. >> >> >> >> So I need to use the English Eloquence with romanian texts. >> >> >> >> In this case, why should FS bother about this small problem? >> >> >> >> Jaws 7 started to use UTF-8 or something like that, and since then, >> >> the>> >> Eloquence doesn't work well, because it reads s instead of degrees, >> >> or>> >> t >> >> instead of thorn. >> >>>> >> But even Windows has some issues I guess, because when I switched >> >> from >> >> Windows 2000 to Win XP I've noticed that when typing right alt+S or >> >> t,>> >> or >> >> a, >> >> Jaws doesn't speak the typed letter. It is typed, but Jaws doesn't >> >> read >> >> it >> >> even it is set to speak each typed letter. >> >>>> >> I've made some changes in a configuration file in Jaws for letting >> >> it>> >> read >> >> correctly those letters, but the result was pretty bad. >> >> >> >> In this situation, I don't think it would be a benefit to use an >> >> editor >> >> like>> >> Commodo, especially that it doesn't have many additional features >> >> but>> >> it >> >> surely has some features missing. >> >> >> >> Octavian >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx> >> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 3:56 AM >> >> Subject: Re: Commodo >> >> >> >> >> >> >I know you've mentioned this JAWS problem before. It surprises me >> >> >that>> >> > JAWS continues to be worse with special characters ever since >> >> > JAWS>> >> > 6. >> >> > I >> >> > know that software sometimes takes a step back in an area while >> >> > other>> >> > features are being added, but I would think that Freedom >> >> > Scientific>> >> > has >> >> > to >> >> > correct such a problem for international customers. What does it >> >> > say >> >> > about the issue? >> >> > >> >> > Jamal >> >> > On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Octavian >> >> > Rasnita wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:25:07 +0200 >> >> >> From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx> >> >> >> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >> >> Subject: Re: Commodo >> >> >>>> >> >> Jaws 7, 8, and probably 9 don't work well with any application >> >> >> if>> >> >> the >> >> >> users>> >> >> need to use special chars in other languages, so it wouldn't be >> >> >> an >> >> >> advantage, because I've seen that Commodo also miss some >> >> >> features,>> >> >> not >> >> >> only >> >> >> accessibility features. >> >> >> >> >> >> Octavian >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "Aaron Leventhal" <aaronlev@xxxxxxxxxxx> >> >> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 8:51 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: Commodo >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Hi Octavian, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I just saw at the end of this that you are using JAWS 6. >> >> >> > Unfortunately >> >> >> > JAWS only started making Mozilla technologies accessible since >> >> >> > something >> >> >> > like JAWS 7.1 >> >> >> > >> >> >> > You ask if Firefox is the same. I would say no -- we (largely >> >> >> > myself) >> >> >> > have >> >> >> > put a large amount of effort specifically into making Firefox >> >> >> > itself>> >> >> > accessible. No such effort has yet gone into Komodo (note -- >> >> >> > it's>> >> >> > spelled >> >> >> > with a K and one M). >> >> >> > >> >> >> > It would be great to find out if more recent versions of JAWS >> >> >> > (such >> >> >> > as >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > JAWS 9 beta) work better with Komodo. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - Aaron >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Octavian Rasnita wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I have installed again Commodo and here is what I found: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. If I press Insert+num pad minus in order to route the Jaws >> >> >> >> cursor >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> the PC cursor, sometimes the menu is activated, but only >> >> >> >> sometimes. >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 2. I needed to use the Jaws cursor, because right after >> >> >> >> starting>> >> >> >> Commodo,>> >> >> >> the editor is not accessible. I expected to press Insert+Tab >> >> >> >> and>> >> >> >> hear >> >> >> >> "edit", but instead I heard something more strange. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. I opened the File menu, and I selected "New" and I pressed >> >> >> >> enter >> >> >> >> and>> >> >> >> in that moment I've seen that the new option has a submenu >> >> >> >> which>> >> >> >> is >> >> >> >> not>> >> >> >> announced by Jaws. Does Commodo need some special scripts >> >> >> >> which>> >> >> >> are >> >> >> >> not>> >> >> >> provided by Jaws 6? I am using Jaws 6 because the Eloquence >> >> >> >> from>> >> >> >> newer >> >> >> >> versions of Jaws doesn't read the special chars correctly. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. I chosen to create a new file and it appeared a list with >> >> >> >> file >> >> >> >> formats, telling "Templates list Text 20 of 22, -85004040 of >> >> >> >> 0"... >> >> >> >> or >> >> >> >> a >> >> >> >> closed number. >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> I've noticed that the FruitBasket program made by Jamal with >> >> >> >> XUL>> >> >> >> works >> >> >> >> the same, telling that garbage with minus 85000000 of 0. >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 5. After choosing "Perl file" and pressing enter, it created >> >> >> >> a>> >> >> >> new >> >> >> >> tab>> >> >> >> named "perl1.pl" or something like that. I cannot read the >> >> >> >> exact>> >> >> >> title >> >> >> >> of>> >> >> >> the tab, because I cannot use the Jaws cursor well in >> >> >> >> Commodo.>> >> >> >> If I >> >> >> >> route >> >> >> >> the Jaws cursor to the PC cursor, I see that the menus are >> >> >> >> activated. >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 6. Another problem I've seen is because If I just move the >> >> >> >> Jaws>> >> >> >> cursor, a>> >> >> >> menu seems to activate itself without needing any click. This >> >> >> >> is>> >> >> >> very >> >> >> >> bad, because I can't read the screen with the Jaws cursor. >> >> >> >> Anything I do, I cannot read the titles of tab pages with the >> >> >> >> Jaws >> >> >> >> cursor. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 7. Now in the editing area, if I press Insert+tab, instead of >> >> >> >> telling >> >> >> >> me >> >> >> >> "edit" like most text editors, it tells me a very long string >> >> >> >> which >> >> >> >> is >> >> >> >> not nice at all". >> >> >> >> Do I need to change the Windows Class of the editing area? I >> >> >> >> think >> >> >> >> I'll>> >> >> >> try this. (I also need to change the highlight color >> >> >> >> assignment,>> >> >> >> because>> >> >> >> if I select a text in the editor, Jaws cannot read that >> >> >> >> text).>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 8. I've tried changing something in the file then save it. >> >> >> >> I've>> >> >> >> seen>> >> >> >> that the "Save as" window doesn't allow us choosing the >> >> >> >> encoding>> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> the>> >> >> >> file (which is not very important to be right here) but it >> >> >> >> also>> >> >> >> don't >> >> >> >> allow us to choose the end of line format in which we want to >> >> >> >> save >> >> >> >> the>> >> >> >> file (Unix/Win/Mac), and this is important to be right here, >> >> >> >> at>> >> >> >> least >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> me. This is not a bug, but just a missing feature. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 9. Sometimes if I press Control+Home in the editing area in >> >> >> >> order >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> move >> >> >> >> the cursor at the beginning of the file, Jaws tells me "File, >> >> >> >> Edit, >> >> >> >> Code... the name of all the menus.>> >> >> >> It seems that this happends because Jaws can't discover where >> >> >> >> is>> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> PC>> >> >> >> cursor after pressing Control+S then escape. Now I can press >> >> >> >> the>> >> >> >> up >> >> >> >> or >> >> >> >> down arrows, control+Tab or shift+Control+tab, but nothing >> >> >> >> happends. >> >> >> >> Jaws >> >> >> >> doesn't speak anything. I think I need to restart Commodo.>> >> >> >> If I try to use the Jaws cursor and I move it faster up or >> >> >> >> down,>> >> >> >> Jaws >> >> >> >> doesn't speak anything. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 10. I've tried to delete the text word by word with >> >> >> >> control+backspace. >> >> >> >> The words are deleted, but Jaws doesn't speak those words. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 11. I've tried to read the status bar of the window with the >> >> >> >> Jaws >> >> >> >> cursor,>> >> >> >> because it is too much text there and I want to see the line >> >> >> >> and>> >> >> >> column>> >> >> >> number of the cursor, but I can't read the status bar >> >> >> >> neither,>> >> >> >> because>> >> >> >> each time I press Control+left or right arrows, a menu seems >> >> >> >> to>> >> >> >> be >> >> >> >> opened.>> >> >> >> Now I've tried to see what's in that menu, because at a >> >> >> >> certain>> >> >> >> moment>> >> >> >> when moving the Jaws cursor with control+left or right, I >> >> >> >> hear>> >> >> >> "menu". >> >> >> >> I've tried then using up and down arrows. I have also tried >> >> >> >> first>> >> >> >> switching to the PC cursor, then using up or down, but with >> >> >> >> no>> >> >> >> luck.>> >> >> >> After doing that, I couldn't continue to read the text >> >> >> >> written>> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> the>> >> >> >> editing area. I couldn't even return to Outlook Express >> >> >> >> because>> >> >> >> I>> >> >> >> couldn't read anything in this message I write right now. So >> >> >> >> I>> >> >> >> needed >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> close Commodo a second time, then I was able to write you. >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 12. I've seen that message "minus 85 millions and something >> >> >> >> of>> >> >> >> 0" >> >> >> >> is >> >> >> >> read >> >> >> >> when using a combo box too. Too bad, especially that in combo >> >> >> >> boxes >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> real number of the list elements is not read at all. >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 13. In the "Find" dialog (Control+F), the buttons don't have >> >> >> >> a>> >> >> >> hotkey >> >> >> >> defined, or at least Jaws cannot detect it if using Shift+Num >> >> >> >> pad >> >> >> >> 5. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 14. Even if I press Control+F or Control+H for replace, the >> >> >> >> Window >> >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> appear is always entitled "Find and replace". This can be >> >> >> >> confusing >> >> >> >> sometimes. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 15. I've tried to change some preferences from the Edit menu, >> >> >> >> but >> >> >> >> some>> >> >> >> elements are not very accessible because the text that >> >> >> >> describes>> >> >> >> them >> >> >> >> are >> >> >> >> not read entirely. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 16. After closing with Ok button that preferences window, now >> >> >> >> Jaws >> >> >> >> lost>> >> >> >> the focus again and I cannot read the text from the editor >> >> >> >> with>> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> PC >> >> >> >> cursor. So I need to close and reopen Commodo once more. >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 17. I like that Commodo has F8 and shift+F8 for jumping to >> >> >> >> the>> >> >> >> previous >> >> >> >> and next subroutine, but this can be done so easy with a find >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> "sub >> >> >> >> ">> >> >> >> then jumping around with F3 and Shift+F3 which is better >> >> >> >> known.>> >> >> >> A >> >> >> >> helpful>> >> >> >> thing though. I hope it also offers the possibility of >> >> >> >> defining>> >> >> >> bookmarks. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 18. Control+F8 for finding all functions could be nice if its >> >> >> >> interface>> >> >> >> would be better, but Jaws speaks so much garbage, that I >> >> >> >> would>> >> >> >> prefer >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> search the subroutines manually than in that list. And after >> >> >> >> displaying>> >> >> >> that list of functions (subroutines), I wasn't able to make >> >> >> >> it>> >> >> >> disappear>> >> >> >> with an escape, but I needed to choose a subroutine then >> >> >> >> press>> >> >> >> enter.>> >> >> >> Maybe the focus moved to that subroutine, but then I wasn't >> >> >> >> able>> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> move>> >> >> >> the cursor from there, but first I needed to switch the focus >> >> >> >> to>> >> >> >> another >> >> >> >> application then come back. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 19. I've saved a file and Jaws lost again the focus. I've >> >> >> >> pressed >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> a>> >> >> >> few times some keys like control+Tab and others I don't >> >> >> >> remember>> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> Jaws>> >> >> >> read for me some checkboxes without names. I've even seen a >> >> >> >> list>> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> files >> >> >> >> and I pressed enter on one of them and Commodo told me that >> >> >> >> there >> >> >> >> is >> >> >> >> no >> >> >> >> such a file and asked me if I want to create it. Ok, I >> >> >> >> understand I >> >> >> >> might>> >> >> >> have been doing something wrong, but I wanted to read again >> >> >> >> that>> >> >> >> dialog >> >> >> >> message but I couldn't do it and this is not ok. >> >> >> >> Jaws was not reading anything, so I have chosen that I don't >> >> >> >> want >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> create that file. >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> 20. I couldn't see an easy way of defining more bookmarks >> >> >> >> like>> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> TextPad >> >> >> >> and this feature is very important for me.>> >> >> >> I've seen other things like breakpoints and other things, but >> >> >> >> no>> >> >> >> hotkeys >> >> >> >> for creating a bookmark, deleting a bookmark, jumping to the >> >> >> >> previous >> >> >> >> and next bookmark, and deleting all the bookmarks. >> >> >> >> Isn't this possible with Commodo? >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Anyway, as you might have seen, Commodo is very hard >> >> >> >> accessible>> >> >> >> at >> >> >> >> least>> >> >> >> with Jaws 6 without special scripts for it, but even if it >> >> >> >> can>> >> >> >> be >> >> >> >> made >> >> >> >> to>> >> >> >> be more accessible, it doesn't have some features other >> >> >> >> editors>> >> >> >> have. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Is Firefox same... "accessible"? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Octavian >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ >> >> >> >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> >> >> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > __________ >> >> >> > View the list's information and change your settings at >> >> >> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ >> >> >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> >> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >> >> >> >> > __________ >> >> > View the list's information and change your settings at >> >> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >> > >> >> >> >> __________ >> >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >> >> > __________ >> > View the list's information and change your settings at >> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> > >> >> __________ >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
