RE: C++ and I are getting divorced.
- From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 10:54:44 -0400
Hi,
I'm not against it if the documentation has more words than code and in a style
that ficilitates learning. I'd rather read then try, read then try, rather than
try, then figure out what I broke.
Jim
Jim Homme,
Usability Services,
Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here.
Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared Wright
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:36 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: C++ and I are getting divorced.
It is irritating as a programmer who tries to document thoroughly when
you take the time to document your program and yet people still come
asking pretty rudimentary questions that I took the time to document for
you. I absolutely know the kinds of situations you guys are talking
about where elitist vets just drown newcomers in instructions to go read
this or that documentation, but perusing documentation is a task you'll
need to learn sooner or later. Probably sooner.
On 07/28/2010 09:40 AM, Alex Midence wrote:
> Heh, that's funny. There's a man out there on one of the learning
> sites who styles himself as the AntiRtfm. He has all these beginner
> videos to teach c++ using visual studio 2008. I think he's on youtube
> too. He got so upset about so many people constantly telling newbies
> to just RTFM which, for those who don't know yet means read the ahem
> bleeping manual. Yes, I said bleeping. This is a nice clean list.
> Anyway, he decided to do something about it. His vids are all right
> but they take a while to download and you need something that will
> play .flv files to open them. Vlc media player is what I got. Be
> careful though, it's really bad about installing this nasty search
> toolbar in your browser and changing your homepage to something else.
> Infuriating! I got an english one in IE and a spanish one in firefox.
> I sent nasty e-mails in both languages.
>
> Regards,
> Alex M
>
> On 7/28/10, Homme, James<james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> Related to this, I get really upset with people who simply say rtfm in
>> response to questions, because the manuals stink for the most part. My
>> favorite way to frustrate myself is to read man pages, and technical books
>> written by programmers.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> Jim Homme,
>> Usability Services,
>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 8:27 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Cc: Jared Wright
>> Subject: Re: C++ and I are getting divorced.
>>
>> I also meant to say that a beginner who asks about a starting language
>> on this list is probably not a computer science major wanting to learn
>> the theory and structure of computers and operating systems. Rather,
>> they are probably a self-taught, part-time learner. Even CS majors
>> usually start with Java these days rather than C, avoiding the
>> nightmares of memory management.
>>
>> Jamal
>>
>> On 7/28/2010 8:18 AM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
>>
>>> I completely agree. Just as it became generally no longer necessary to
>>> learn about manipulating computer registers in assembler, it is no
>>> longer necessary, in general, to learn about the memory management that
>>> C requires. It is not helpful to send a beginner down the minefield of C
>>> or C++ in the belief that it will build their character. I think it is
>>> better to start with a language that is simpler and more forgiving, thus
>>> giving them the experience of successful programming, including simple
>>> GUIs after starting with console programs (hardly anyone develops a GUI
>>> with native C anymore).
>>>
>>> Building successful, genuinely useful programs increases one's
>>> confidence and passion about the power of programming. Tripping over
>>> every other step discourages one. I started with higher level languages,
>>> have gone as low as C# afterward, and been gratified by the results of
>>> that path.
>>>
>>> I recommend that beginners start with AutoIT, Visual Basic .NET, Python,
>>> or Ruby. Each of these has pros and cons, and I wish there was a single
>>> language that combined the best of them. As the Sodbeans project grows
>>> from experience, a beginner should also consider that environment.
>>>
>>> Jamal
>>>
>>> On 7/27/2010 3:22 PM, Jared Wright wrote:
>>>
>>>> I understand this prospective and started myself on C++, but think
>>>> there is a certain mindset that benefits from learning certain auxiliary
>>>> features later if possible. Think of it like a video game: the video
>>>> game only teaches you the gameplay elements that you need to progress to
>>>> the next level and teaches you more advanced concepts when a need for
>>>> their understanding arises. I think it's no secret that we learn faster
>>>> and in more useful ways in a video game setting than in the more
>>>> traditional academia computer science and so many other fields force
>>>> down students' throats.
>>>>
>>>> Additionally, C++ is less used now for basic end user applications like
>>>> those you start programming with anyway. I think something like Perl or
>>>> Python is both a better initial launchpad as well as more practical in
>>>> the industry moving forward. You don't even really HAVE to learn C++
>>>> now, learning C# is almost more important. Yes you learn more about deep
>>>> programming concepts learning with it, but follow that logic and you
>>>> should learn in machine code, no? Even ten years ago C++ was such a
>>>> common language for so many types of programs. WE didn't have the nice
>>>> scripting language wrappers for low level functions that we enjoy now.
>>>> It made sense to learn it out of the gate, because it probably wasn't
>>>> going to be too long before you truly needed to write something real in
>>>> C++. Now its uses are more specialized, (and I'm talking relative to C++
>>>> ten years ago here) and I think this somewhat jeopardizes it as a good
>>>> starting language. Just my thoughts, of course.
>>>>
>>>> On 07/27/2010 12:46 PM, Tyler Littlefield wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Why something "forgivving," though? IMO it's much easier to learn with
>>>>> something strict and move to other languages; not only will you code
>>>>> better, but you will understand more about what's going on, rather
>>>>> than just accept the fact that it does what you want however you may
>>>>> write it.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Tyler Littlefield
>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>> Twitter: sorressean
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 27, 2010, at 8:16 AM, Alex Hall wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> JS because it is, as I said, quite forgiving, and it lets you practice
>>>>>> basics like looping and conditions without needing to worry about data
>>>>>> types or managing projects in a massive IDE. I do not recommend giving
>>>>>> up completely, rather, use another language to pin down the basics,
>>>>>> get good at that language, then come back to cpp to continue learning
>>>>>> it now that you have the concepts of OOP in your mind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/27/10, Tyler Littlefield<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> javascript? Seriously? python was a good solution though, you just
>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>> get used to indentation. Better to keep slogging along with cpp
>>>>>>> than to
>>>>>>> switch half way through, because essentially your just giving up on
>>>>>>> something.
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Tyler Littlefield
>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>>> Twitter: sorressean
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2010, at 8:09 AM, Alex Hall wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you want to try programming, I recommend either Javascript (a web
>>>>>>>> language, but it is forgiving and easy to understand) or Python,
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> is, in my opinion, a lot easier than cpp. I definitely do not
>>>>>>>> recommend giving up. As Tyler said, everyone who learns to program
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> a rough time of it at first, but eventually you get better and learn
>>>>>>>> from past mistakes, and learning one language that you find you
>>>>>>>> like a
>>>>>>>> lot will help you learn other languages in the future, since they all
>>>>>>>> have the underlying principles of looping, conditions, functions, and
>>>>>>>> so on, though they all implement these in different ways.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/27/10, Tyler Littlefield<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I guess, there is a better analogy. Nothing comes to you easy; you
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> crawl before you walk, walk before you run. Look at it like
>>>>>>>>> playing an
>>>>>>>>> instrument. You don't just sit down and pick up a complex song in 5
>>>>>>>>> minutes.
>>>>>>>>> Something that may help you is to go go look at code that does
>>>>>>>>> what you
>>>>>>>>> want. Google for like "c++ elseif" and see what pops up.
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Tyler Littlefield
>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>>>>> Twitter: sorressean
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2010, at 7:55 AM, Tyler Littlefield wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you want to give up after the first few syntax errors, go for
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>> Otherwise, keep working, your going through what everyone who
>>>>>>>>>> learns c++
>>>>>>>>>> did, and you'll get it.
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Littlefield
>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>>>>>> Twitter: sorressean
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2010, at 7:52 AM, Jes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lol thought I'd put a humorous subject in there to try and lift my
>>>>>>>>>>> spirits a little bit. I've been working on a project for five days
>>>>>>>>>>> straight, sacrificing sleep and other stuff to get the stupid
>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>> done,
>>>>>>>>>>> and I've decided that while I like programming, C++ is a bit to
>>>>>>>>>>> complicated for me at this point. I am a musician, so after I
>>>>>>>>>>> get this
>>>>>>>>>>> beast of an assignment done, I'm divorcing C++ and moving back
>>>>>>>>>>> to music
>>>>>>>>>>> for a bit. Audio editors and sequencers all do whatever I tell
>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>> too,
>>>>>>>>>>> they don't bitch at me like M S Visual Studio or GCC.
>>>>>>>>>>> As the average pc user declares, "They, just, work. "
>>>>>>>>>>> Grin. I won't be able to make anything more than simple
>>>>>>>>>>> programs, no
>>>>>>>>>>> matter how much I like programming.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>>>>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>>>>>>>> __________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
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