RE: About lisp
- From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 23:23:44 -0500
It's interesting that you mentioned a novel windowing system and not a
graphics interface for programmers. *smile*, two quite separate things. One
deals in abstract terms involving stacks, queues, overlays, priority
scheduling, possibly coordinate management, and so on. The other deals with
setting the background color to red, defining buttons inside of classes for
windows, and generally very dirty looking code. The former can be quite
beautiful, and still is, in lisp, the latter is hardly beautiful in any
language, especially in lisp.
Take care,
Sina
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Hofstader
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 10:55 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: About lisp
The first known windowing system was written by Richard Greenblatt in Lisp
at MIT when he was still a student. He would later go onto Director of AI
and then form LMI (Lisp Machines Incorporated) which would be at the center
of the controversy that would pit Greenblatt/Stallman and the free software
people (Hal, Jerry, Rod, etc.) against those who would form Symbolics and
the other proprietary source companies that just took the work from the AI
Lab and commercialized it.
No one really remembers Symbolics or Goz and that crowd nor does anyone
remember LMI. Greenblatt's Sleazy Windowing System, however, has a solid
place in history. Unfortunately, Greenblatt and his crew had to invent a
new computer designed specifically to run Lisp and the windowing system as
nothing on the market had either the horsepower or the kinds of processor
instructions needed to run Lisp with any efficiency back then.
cdh
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:55 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: About lisp
I want to agree with Sina here if your going to write Lisp write lisp don't
try to shove GUI into it cause that just spells guilisp and unless you have
the flew you don't need that.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 5:37 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: About lisp
Ken did a great job with that one, and he realized a great deal of the
headache that goes into lisp and GUI programming, but I will say that it is
a horrible example of lisp. This has nothing at all to do with Ken's code,
which is great. It's just that the lisp fruit basket is not representative
of the really powerful phrasings of most problems that can exist in lisp,
and instead it ends up being multi-line calls of special parameters to
functions to design a win32 dialog.
Take care,
Sina
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of inthaneelf
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:23 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: About lisp
I believe I have some info on lisp in the definitions file for the fruit
basket demo version in that language, either that or I got some info from
one of the computer dictionaries on a search from it, both of which have
links on the fruit basket home page.
HTH,
Inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links
to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming
languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "tribble" <lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: About lisp
> Re: apl
> I wonder if it was just one of those academic languages there only for
> the purpose of teaching a comparative language class... Which leads
> me to the
> following: Did anyone ever program in a language called icon? It was
> popular when I got my masters, but I haven't heard of it lately...
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Hofstader" <chris.hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 6:05 AM
> Subject: RE: About lisp
>
>
> I never even met someone who programmed in APL. My brother made his
> living in SmallTalk and all of its graphicality for a while but now
> he's working for Microsoft and, I'd assume, he works using their
> languages.
>
> cdh
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina
> Bahram
> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 8:41 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: About lisp
>
> APL is such an amazingly cool sounding language ... I really tried to
> get into it a while back, but it's not easy to program in a graphical
> programming language, *grin*
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of tribble
> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 3:15 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: About lisp
>
> ah yes, snobol -- loved that language -- memories -- the runtime
> environment we used to run snobol was called spitbol (kind of weird)
> -- did you ever write anything in apl? That was a fun one also that
> stretched the mind a bit. I don't know about current use of lisp.
> --le
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Macarty, Jay {PBSG}" <Jay.Macarty@xxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 6:01 PM
> Subject: About lisp
>
>
> Sina,
> Way back in the day, I took a course on languages which covered about
> 8 different ones in a single course. Probably the most obscure of
> these was snobol for which a class mate and I wrote an interpreter. I
> recall studying lisp but was wondering what it is generally used for
> these days and if a free command line compiler is available?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina
> Bahram
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:03 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: what is Hex?
>
> You're absolutely correct my friend. Needless to say I feel extremely
> bad about this. Sorry!
>
> I sat down and wrote out -127 in twos complement and realized I can
> also represent -128.
>
> Obviously this applies to 32 bit representations and so on, as well.
>
> Sorry again ... It appears that programming in lisp and java have
> dulled my senses.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nirandas
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 12:02 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: what is Hex?
>
>
> Hi Sina,
> As I understand, a byte can contain 256 unique values. So a signed
> byte's maximum and minimum range should be -128 to 127 not
> -127 to 127.
>
>
> Nirandas
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sina Bahram <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:50 AM
> Subject: RE: what is Hex?
>
>
> Again, I'm sorry for the disagreement, but there are several flaws in
> this explanation. I've attempted to correct them below.
>
> The standard byte's signed values are -127 to 127, not -128 to 127 ...
> it's being picky, but this is extremely important and the source of
> 90% of most security flaws today.
>
> A standard word is a misnomer. This assumes a two byte word which is
> only true on 16-bit architecture. A word can be 16 bits, 32-bits, or
> even
> 11 bits
> in some platforms ... it just depends. A double word can be 32 bits,
> but it can also be 16 bits in some platforms or not even supported in
> others, so there is no standard here.
>
> However, using twos complement, I must again clarrify the minimum and
> maximum of a 16 bit value, since it is not -32768 to 32767, I'm
> afraid, but is instead -32767 to 32767
>
> As for a 32 bit value, the minimum and maximum are as follows.
>
> Using twos complement, the signed minimum and maximum of a 32-bit
> integer are -2147483647 to 2147483647 , and the minimum and maximum of
> an unsigned
> 32 bit integer are 0 to 4294967295
>
> Hope this clears things up.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ian D.
> Nichols
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 5:40 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: what is Hex?
>
> Hi Listers,
>
> As I see it, things have become a little muddled here, both in James's
> message and in Sina's reply.
>
> The standard byte is still 8 bits, containing unsigned values of 0 to
> 255 and signed values of -128 to +127.
>
> The word contains 16 bits, with unsigned values of 0 to 65535, and
> signed values of -32768 to +32767.
>
> The double word contains 32 bits, with very large values possible.
> Unsigned, 0 to 4 thousand millions, and signed values from -2
> thousand millions to + 2 thousand millions, more or less.
>
> I hope I've got my thinking straight on that, and haven't caused
> further confusion.
>
> All the best,
>
> Ian
>
> Ian D. Nichols,
> Toronto, Canada
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 4:58 PM
> Subject: RE: what is Hex?
>
>
> A few things. big endian versus little endian is arbritrary, so it's
> not a fact with respect to storage.
>
> More importantly, the minimum and maximum of a signed 32 bit integer
> is not
> -65535 to 65535, it's actually -32767 to 32767
>
> If it is signed, then it is 0 to 65535
>
> At the end of the day, you only have 2^16 permutations of 16 bits in a
> binary system; thus, you have a maximum of 65536 positions, and so you
> have half as much capacity if you are using twos complement to allow
> for both negative numbers and the concept of 0.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of James
> Panes
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 2:35 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: what is Hex?
>
> Yes, Hexidecimal numbers are 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, C, D,
> E, F for a total of 16 possible digit values.
>
> As stated before, this is much more convenient for the computer as
> 16 is an
> even power of 2 and computers actually use binary, 0 and 1. The
> hexidecimal representation is actually easier for humans to read than
> binary.
> Hexidecimal digits are grouped into groups of 2 for a total of 16 x
> 16 or
> 256 possible values. This is a standard byte. Before unicode, a single
> byte value was used to represent an alphanumeric character and two
> bytes or a word were used to represent a 32 bit integer with values
> possible from
> -65535 to 65535. This explains the limit of the size of variables in
> older games.
>
> The original Intel 8086 processor had 16 bit registers. Operations for
> anything larger had to be synthisized with software.
>
> What's more, for integer values larger than 255, the least significant
> pair of digits is stored first. For example, if you were looking for
> the value
> 301 (decimal) in a game save file, you would find it represented as
> 23 01 in
> the save file.
>
> Since this list is about programming and not game save file hacking, I
> will end my lecture here.
>
> Anyone with further interest in this topic can write me off-list
>
> Regards,
> Jim
> jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx
> jimpanes@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> "Everything is easy when you know how."
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Valiant (on laptop)" <valiant@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 8:43 AM
> Subject: Re: what is Hex?
>
>
> Hi.
> I didn't see anyone mention this part about hex.
> Hex is just another number scale like the standard one 0 to 9 or the
> binary one 0 to 1. Hex is 0 to f I think, making it bass 16, where the
> one we use every day 0 to 9 is bass 10 and binary is bass, hmm,
> someone help? 0 to 1?
> The possible digits in hex are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, a, b, c, d,
> e, f can't remember if hex starts with 0. It lets you have larger
> numbers without taking up as much space. MAC addresses on networking
> equipment use it.
> some of that could be wrong, it's been two whole years since I had to
> study that, here.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:03 PM
> Subject: RE: what is Hex?
>
>
> 21, but yes he is, Thanks Chris
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Marlon
> Brandão de Sousa
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:12 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: what is Hex?
>
> Are you serious about Sina being 22 years old only? Man I have seen
> people who have studied computers for many more than this quantity of
> years and don't seen to know a half of what Sina knows easily ...
> Marlon
>
> 2008/2/15, Chris Hofstader <chris.hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
>> God Sina, you bring back memories of Z80 and needing to "poke"
>> instructions and data into memory before execution. I would have
>> thought you, who was born in 1986 would never had to get to that
>> level. Personally, I think it's a really valuable exercise even
> if
>> one never actually needs to use it in a "real" program just to get
> a
> better understanding of what a processor "sees"
>> and how base 16 numbers can be turned into both instructions and
> data
>> depending upon how the processor looks at them.
>>
>> In the network edition of "Bank Street Writer" a word processing
>> program written entirely in assembly, that was pretty popular in
> the
>> years before you learned to talk, I added a function called,
>> "DON'T_CALL_THIS." If you did call it the program would crash as
> the
>> instructions looked random. If, however, you looked at the last
>> handful of bytes of the program as ASCII, it read "FSMITHISAWORM."
>> Frank Smith, a really great guy, was the client on the gig and we
>> decided to immortalize him in an Easter Egg that only an ubergeek
> could
> find.
>>
>> Now, just for shits and giggles, try to reconstruct the function
> in
>> 80x86 assembly and receive the truly wasted chunk of time award.
>>
>> cdh
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina
>> Bahram
>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:28 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: what is Hex?
>>
>> *smile*, wlel actually, if you really want to get down to it ...
> it can
> be.
>>
>> Assembler compiles down to executable instructions to the
> processor,
>> which are most often and most easily read in hex.
>>
>> I used to know almost all of the 8086 instructions and some of
> their
>> hex equivalents a while back. It's really useful when analysing
>> exploit and virus code.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex
> Hall
>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:47 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: re: what is Hex?
>>
>> Right, but it almost sounds like some sort of programming
> language.
>>
>> Have a great day,
>> Alex
>>
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >From: Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >Date sent: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:27:12 -0800
>> >Subject: re: what is Hex?
>>
>> >Hi Alex,
>> >It's a shortened form of hexadecimal.
>> >Cheers,
>> >Joseph
>>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>From: Alex Hall <mehgcap@xxxxxxx
>> >>To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>Date sent: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:18:21 -0500
>> >>Subject: what is Hex?
>>
>> >>Hi all
>> >>Whatis this Hex that has been talked about
>> >recently?
>>
>> >>Have a great day,
>> >>Alex
>> >>__________
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>
>
> --
> When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just
> stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for
> free."
> Linus Torvalds
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