Re: A Step Backwards

  • From: John G <jglists0@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 08:24:50 +0000

What you describe below sounds like a sensible way of employing the table element. problems start when tables are used mainly to enhance visual presentation, and not necessarily to introduce layout semantics for the data thus presented. For example, personally, I think the use of tables for bringing together form elements and their corresponding text labels can be problematic, not to mention unnecessary. It's also worth mentioning that not every screen reader user finds table navigation an easy task. Therefore, in line with the general philosophy of UI design in the sighted world, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect tables to aid (rather than hinder) usability.


is your script available to the public? it sounds like a useful thing to have around.
Kind regards
John

At 07:03 19/03/2011, you wrote:
Is the information in a TV Guide layout considered a presentation or data table? Is using a true html table considered bad form or not the ideal accessibility solution? I personally picked the guide at TitanTV.com because it shows all of the programs for 6 hours for all of your favorite channels within a table. Using the Arrow keys while holding down the Alt + Control keys lets me move around the table like a spreadsheet. Actually I wrote a script that toggles me in or out of a Table Navigation Mode so I do not need to hold down those keys. It also announces the time slot (column heading) and channel (row header) as I move around the table.


Don Marang
Vinux Software Development Coordinator - vinux.org.uk

There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of any real substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am working
on things that matter.
-- Dean Kamen


On 3/16/2011 9:25 AM, E.J. Zufelt wrote:
There are generally two thoughts on this decision.

1. People are going to use tables for layout, allowing for role="presentation" provides an explicit method of indicating that a table is part of presentation, and not semantic.

2. Tables should never be used for presentation, all markup should be semantic and all presentation should be performed with CSS.

I am on the fence, it is most likely that those using tables for layout will not know or care about role="presentation". I prefer the standardist approach, where * all * markup is for semantics, and not for presentation. That being said, is this decision really going to make a big difference on the usability accessibility of a site, likely not.


Everett Zufelt
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On 2011-03-16, at 10:19 AM, Ken Perry wrote:

I don't see that as a step backwards since they force the role attribute.

ken

-----Original Message-----
From: <mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John G
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 9:37 AM
To: <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: A Step Backwards

Does anyone know about this?
begin extract
Therefore, the HTML Working Group hereby adopts the "Allow tables
to be >used for presentational purposes" Proposal for ISSUE-130.  Of
the Change Proposals before us, this one has drawn the weaker objections.
In short, this means that HTML5 rescinds HTML4's guidance on the use
of the table markup structure for its presentational layout
attributes, such that such use will now be HTML5-valid, provided said
table has a role attribute set to "presentation" [1].
end extract

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