Search job sites for Oracle DBA humble and you get hits - one must wonder what has happened to make them actually _ask_ for humble, maybe only experienced people have been humbled by Oracle? I think "expert" has become confused in people's minds with "arrogant." There's a reviewer here who notes Larry Ellison can be humble: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B00025G2L4/002-0320235 -6041642?_encoding=UTF8 Joel "Not The Worst Thing On Usenet" Garry http://www.garry.to -- //www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l