Niall, >> For instance: someone sent me 200G of cold backup tape, but the >> database was not being shutdown cleanly. The online logs were >> needed of course. The folks at the other end would not own up >> I was thankful for his poor backup practice of backing up the logs, >> it saved us a bit of work. I think the keyword here is "Cold backup" (even if it was incorrect). A Cold backup _does_ require Online redologs to be backed up, as this is a _Total_Image_ of the Database. Although the other DBA was supposed to have shutdown before backup, he _did_ backup the redo logs. The fact was there this was during a quiescent period when the SCN did not change helped you recover... Maybe he did do the right thing and back up the redo logs... Fyi... I had a similar situation long ago, when *I* forgot to shutdown before a cold backup clone for a demo. My backside was saved because there were no transactions (users were told to commit and logoff). -- //www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l