Wow.... it just hit me what a couple of you were trying to say to me yesterday about the hash joins..... and I think that does answer my question. Since by default the hash join will take the smaller table, no mater what, it kind of limits the ability of the optimizer to choose the better plan. Since dept was the smaller table, it will hash it first, and thats what it's going to do, period. Is that about the size of it? Too many irons in the fire... the subconscious had to process what you were trying to tell me. Thanks for the feedback. RF -- //www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l