David, I take your statements as a good theory but let's take a look at reality below: >> There is no doubt that position a "closed border socialist economy" took is beneficial to them. I wish I had time for a more thoughtful reply. I think this is a common economic misconception. Protectionism and isolationism actually reduce the liberty of the people in the countries taking this position by limiting their choices and making the industries within them less competitive through subsidized rewards to the underperforming industries. The industries manufacturing in China and selling to the rest of the world are "extremely" competitive today. They do not really compete between themselves in China but they do compete in US and Western Europe and through that competition grow at unprecedented rate. This is clear in all electronic manufacturing I encountered. The technology they develop through that competition trickle up into the government sector as well. China space program has a goal to land on the moon by 2020. They already have beginning of orbital space station as of this year. >> There is definitely a doubt that position of an "open border capitalist economy" when it deals with this kind of a "closed border socialist economy" is beneficial. Another misconception. No one is ever being abused, overpowered, or taken advantage of, when they agree to a mutual exchange on the unhampered market. Both parties to the trade benefit, or no exchange would take place. Of course but the real issue is US government willingly agreed or to this situation with or without long term understanding of consequences to US jobs and economy. Perhaps when this situation developed in the early 80-s there was some strategic or political benefits. However, at present it looks like a huge vacuum cleaner that take US jobs at unprecedented rate without any resistance from our side. Mike Tsinberg http://keydigital.com From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Broberg Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 6:22 PM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: TV Prices Fall, Squeezing Most Makers and Sellers Mike, >> There is no doubt that position a "closed border socialist economy" took is beneficial to them. I wish I had time for a more thoughtful reply. I think this is a common economic misconception. Protectionism and isolationism actually reduce the liberty of the people in the countries taking this position by limiting their choices and making the industries within them less competitive through subsidized rewards to the underperforming industries. >> There is definitely a doubt that position of an "open border capitalist economy" when it deals with this kind of a "closed border socialist economy" is beneficial. Another misconception. No one is ever being abused, overpowered, or taken advantage of, when they agree to a mutual exchange on the unhampered market. Both parties to the trade benefit, or no exchange would take place. Video explanations here: http://youtu.be/Ei0ch-y7r5c David From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Tsinberg Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 2:50 PM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: TV Prices Fall, Squeezing Most Makers and Sellers David, I live in New York City and enjoy all the privileges of shopping in Best Buy with very low TV prices... A small correction in your terms: . An "open border capitalist economy" by definition has unilaterally decided to sell to anyone and will buy from anyone without restriction - no trade barriers. Agreed . A "closed border socialist economy" by definition has unilaterally decided to restrict purchases from outside regions by the application of tariffs, quotas, import duties or some trade agreements but takes advantage and have unrestricted sales to the regions or countries who have no trade barriers There is no doubt that position a "closed border socialist economy" took is beneficial to them. There is definitely a doubt that position of an "open border capitalist economy" when it deals with this kind of a "closed border socialist economy" is beneficial. Mike Tsinberg http://keydigital.com From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Broberg Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 3:15 PM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: TV Prices Fall, Squeezing Most Makers and Sellers Mike, Interesting topic. First let's be sure we understand your terms. How about this? . An "open border capitalist economy" by definition has unilaterally decided to sell to anyone and will buy from anyone without restriction - no trade barriers. . A "closed border socialist economy" by definition has unilaterally decided to restrict sales to or purchases from outside regions by the application of tariffs, quotas, import duties or some trade agreements. In this comparison, the only ones with any loss of liberty will be those who are restricted. Their liberty to choose how best to use their own property has been restricted. There is no "siphoning of jobs" away from the capitalist economy from this action. All exchanges are voluntary and mutually beneficial. I assume the town or county where you live has some borders. Suppose the town council was taken in by the "buy-local" lobbyists and decided to impose import duties on all goods coming into the town, to limit foreign competition. This generally benefits (subsidizes) the local producers in your town, while restricting you and everyone else in the town's ability to purchase competing products which might be lower priced or higher quality produced elsewhere. For a simple explanation of this topic, see chapter 5 of Jonathan Gullible by Ken Schoolland. It is available in over 40 languages! http://www.jonathangullible.com/frontpage -David (perpetual student of Ludwig von Mises, Murray Rothbard, Friedrich von Hayek, Albert J Nock, Walter Block, Henry Hazlitt, etc.) From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Tsinberg Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 12:19 PM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: TV Prices Fall, Squeezing Most Makers and Sellers How does an open border capitalist economy should interact with closed border socialist economy when such socialist economy effectively siphoning jobs out of capitalist economy putting such capitalist economy in deep economic crisis and then giving that capitalist economy credit that keeps that capitalist books solidly out of balance? Mike Tsinberg http://keydigital.com From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of dan.grimes@xxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 1:54 PM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: TV Prices Fall, Squeezing Most Makers and Sellers I would like to point out that most of the theory I learned about maintaining free trade and a capitalist economy states that tariffs are hindrance to maintaining financial balance, an open supply chain, and allowance for market changes. It is my opinion that we have been wise to keep import tariffs to a minimum. It seems to me most expert economists preach this theory. I would have to say that I am not an economic expert so I will tend to follow there advice and maintain that tariffs are fine for Socialist economies but might have quite an undesirable effect on a capitalist one. Dan