[opendtv] Re: Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
- From: Kilroy Hughes <Kilroy.Hughes@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:16:45 -0700
[TB] "This doesn't work well with (confused) telecined material, causes
artifacts, and likely will involve some additional filtering by the
display to hide those."
Published HD DVD-V discs have had their P24 cadence carefully preserved.
That has been SOP for DVD-Vs by the major Studios and authoring
facilities for several years. Video editing gear has become cadence
aware to preserve "edited on tape" TV. Production chains handle native
P24 at most stages now, such as D5 tape machines, video editing, etc.,
so P24 can be encoded Progressive_Sequence=1, or =0 with repeat field
flags and consistent frames/field pairs.
HD DVD-V players should render graphics at P24 as well as the video, and
only apply field scanning and 3:2 pulldown to the composited output
(only necessary because display manufacturers don't support HDMI 1080P24
mode). A display won't be confused by P24 output with 3:2 pulldown.
The interlace problems you mention used to be a big problem for DVD-V
for the first few years when 480P output players and progressive
displays were rare. Now there are many tens of millions of progressive
display systems that have resulted in mostly good production behavior.
The industry still has no clue how to make HDMI and 1080P work.
Displays are still forced to guess what kind of video content is coming
over the wire and what signal processing is being done by the source
device and the display device.
Kilroy Hughes
-----Original Message-----
From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Tom Barry
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 16:04
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
Kilroy Hughes wrote:
> The 1080i30 output of the Samsung BD player will be "inverse
telecined"
> by the 1080 displays out there, 12 fields will be thrown away, and
the
> other 48 will be losslessly combined into 24 frames, which can be
> blinked by the display at 60, 72, 120Hz, etc. for motion and contrast
> improvement. No scaling/resampling, filtering, "deinterlacing", etc.
> needed.
>
That is sort of a best case scenario. If there are bad edits, moving
video menus, or video (or different cadence) PIP then it is very hard to
just throw away fields. And even harder to automatically determine that
you should be doing that.
But if the deinterlacer is uncertain it may fall into an attempt at
motion compensated or adaptive deinterlacing, assuming the worst. This
doesn't work well with (confused) telecined material, causes artifacts,
and likely will involve some additional filtering by the display to hide
those.
So while deinterlacing is absolutely necessary in our new world of all
progressive displays I still won't trust it much.
- Tom
> The writer didn't understand, so you drew the wrong conclusion.
>
>
>
> The fact is that the HD displays worth considering are progressive
> display technology (DLP, PDP, LCD, LCOS, etc.). If they have
1080lines
> of resolution, they always DISPLAY 1080P, even if you input an
> interlaced signal, even if the video was sampled interlaced. The only
> question is how much damage is inflicted by source and display
> processing to create that progressive image.
>
>
>
> The 1080i30 output of the Samsung BD player will be "inverse
telecined"
> by the 1080 displays out there, 12 fields will be thrown away, and the
> other 48 will be losslessly combined into 24 frames, which can be
> blinked by the display at 60, 72, 120Hz, etc. for motion and contrast
> improvement. No scaling/resampling, filtering, "deinterlacing", etc.
> needed.
>
>
>
> The 1080i30 HDMI connection produces better progressive video than the
> 1080P60 output.
>
>
>
> The 1080P60 output applies 3:2 pulldown to generate 60 fields in the
> player, then deinterlaces with a Genesis chip. Ugliness happens when
> resampling, motion compensating, and filtering 60 540 line fields, to
> synthesize 60 1080 line frames. 60 frames of judder and distortion
are
> then passed over the video interface (HDMI) and processed by the
> display's image processor (random behavior different for different
> displays) and displayed at 60 frames per second (with 32ms/48ms
judder).
>
>
>
> As many reviewers have noted, the i30 signal connection from this
player
> produces cleaner, higher resolution progressive display with the same
> disc, player, and display than the 60P signal connection.
>
>
>
> Microsoft is a big fan of encoding and displaying progressive images,
> but the hype about P60 vs. i30 signal interconnect is a red herring.
>
>
>
> Kilroy Hughes
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Mark Aitken
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2006 08:32
> *To:* OpenDTV
> *Subject:* [opendtv] Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
>
>
>
> I find it "interesting" that MicroSoft NOW finds the P vs. I argument
> "meaningless"! Perhaps marketing hype only works in one direction???
>
> http://www.tvpredictions.com/1080p081506.htm
>
> News & Commentary
> Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
> The company's XBox strategist attacks Sony's decision to include the
new
> format in the PlayStation 3.
> By Phillip Swann
>
> Washington, D.C. (August 15, 2006) -- A key Microsoft strategist says
> the industry is 'hyping' 1080p, the new format that purportedly offers
a
> sharper High-Definition TV picture.
>
> Andre Vrignaud, Microsoft's chief strategist for the XBox game
console,
> says the current 1080i format ("i" stands for interlaced; "p" for
> progressive.) provides a picture just as good.
>
> Sony, Microsoft's chief gaming rival, is launching a new game console
> (Play Station 3) in November that will support 1080p for HDTV movies
and
> games while Microsoft's XBox 360 will not. The latter console displays
> games in 1080i and will include a 1080i HD-DVD adapter later in the
year.
>
> "What's interesting is that a lot of folks don't realize how
meaningless
> 1080p actually is in this generation," Vrignaud writes at his blog,
> Ozymandias.com. "Most modern HD displays (Plasmas, LCD, DLP, etc.)
> display content progressively, //even if they first received an
> interlaced signal (so) //when you're watching a 1080 signal on a
modern
> HD display, you're //almost always// watching a 1080p signal."
>
> Vrignaud, Microsoft's director of technical strategy for XBox Live,
> added that gamers, and HDTV owners, should not be "sucked into all the
> 1080p hype."
>
> Swanni Sez:
> The battle over picture formats is just starting. Sony (and TV
> manufacturers who are launching 1080p sets) will say the new format
> offers a better picture. But Microsoft, and perhaps some network
> programmers who would like to keep filming in 1080i, will say you
can't
> tell the difference.
>
> It's too early to say which side will win, But the short term loser is
> the American consumer who is already confused enough by high-def.
>
> Click TVPredictions.com <http://www.tvpredictions.com> to see the rest
> of today's Swanni Sez.
>
> (c) TVPredictions.com
>
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