I'd assume it would be more than 1080i/30 on most all material, but
nowhere near twice as much.
Though frankly I doubt there is much source material available yet where
the results would have observably more detail than 720p. But it is
still a nice future target.
- Tom
......so what do you think: how much bit-rate would be required for a 1080p/60 emission format using e.g. MPEG-4 AVC?
1: equal to 1080i/30 (average critical material) 2: less than 1080i/30 (how much with average critical materail - percentage) 3: more than 1080i/30 (""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" - percentage)
Regards, Hans
European Broadcasting Union
Hans Hoffmann - Senior Engineer Technical Department
L'Ancienne Route 17a
CH-1218 Grand Saconnex Geneva
Switzerland
Tel:+41 22 717 2746
Tel-Mobile: +41 79 249 3550
Fax: +41 22 747 4746
E-Mail: hoffmann@xxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tom Barry
Sent: jeudi, 17. août 2006 18:47
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
Displays are clearly headed towards 1080p, at some frame rate. And oversampled telecines are emerging that can create a good 1080p/24 archive media. We just don't have good 1080p/60 cameras yet.
But if we archive and increasingly work with 1080p there is not much problem with using 720p as an emission format when needed. Or even 540p or 576p for Internet delivery. Yet highdef DVD's of some sort can maybe also use 1080p/60 as the surplus space becomes available.
The emission format is sort of the thin section of the pipe right now, but it's not the only pipe. So we will likely expand the resolution at both ends to take advantage of future opportunities and other delivery methods.
- Tom
Craig Birkmaier wrote:
Not sure I ever thought I would be saying this, but the exec at Microsoft and Kilroy have it right.
1080P is clearly better than 1080i as a camera acquisition format,
however, there are practical limits on the frame rates that can be supported and encoded for emission. The reality is that
1080P on the
acquisition side of the video chain is becoming synonymous with 1080@24P. This is what is being used by Hollywood for digital post production, and in some cases for acquisition. 1080@60P is for all practical purposes a display format, and as Kilroy noted,
it can just as
easily be 1080@50P or 1080@72P.
1080@60P as an acquisition format is ludicrous today. It may take
another decade to develop cameras that can do a decent job
with 1080@xxxxxx
To explain, the problem with cameras is that you need to
oversample by
a
factor of 1.5 to 2, to produce images that can take full
advantage of
the available spectra in a 1920 x 1080 format. We are not
there yet
even for 1080@24P. Doing this at 1080@60P is even further
out in the
future. Then there is the other reality that the sensitivity of the camera is limited by the sample area on the sensors and the
frame rate.
Building an oversampling camera to produce high quality
1280 x 720 is
far more practical; on an oversampling 1080P display the
quality will be
outstanding.
Kilroy touched on the issue of getting 1080@60P through the HDMI
connections to commercial displays. This is also true for
the entire
video production chain. Virtually all of the HD production
gear in use
today is limited to the clock rates used for
720@60P/1080@30i. There are
now over 40 remote trucks on the road that can easily
switch between
these formats; video production chains that could support
1080@60P do
not exist today, and there is little reason to believe that this equipment will be available in the near future, or that the
industry
will replace the existing HD gear that is just coming on line.
Another interesting side story here is that we are talking about gaming
platforms. Clearly, it is desirable to render the graphics
for a game
using progressive formats. I don't know what the render
specs are for
the current generation of game platforms, or what is
planned for the
PS3, but I am very confident that the graphics ARE NOT
being rendered at
1920 x 1080@60P.
Bottom line, I believe that most of the hype about 1080@60P is being
generated by those who are in the 1080@30i camp as an acquisition format. The long term belief (hope) that 1080@60P will
become the one
format to rule them all, helps to prop up 1080@30i for today.
Microsoft had it right in the '90s, suggesting that all emission formats
be progressive. The issues related to entropy coding alone
justify this,
not to mention the elimination of interlace artifacts in
acquisition gear.
The emphasis should be on building oversampled 720P cameras, and giving
the emission channel enough headroom to deliver the full potential quality of this format. The oversampled 1080P displays can
deal with the
small number of displays sold that will be large enough to need 2 million screen samples.
Meanwhile, interlaced SD is still the primary economic
engine behind
the
television industry. If we had listened to Microsoft, Apple
et all in
the '90s, we would at least have a digital TV system that
delivers high
quality images to ALL modern progressive displays.
Regards Craig
At 6:16 PM -0700 8/16/06, Kilroy Hughes wrote:
[TB] "This doesn't work well with (confused) telecined material, causes artifacts, and likely will involve some additional
filtering
by the display to hide those."
Published HD DVD-V discs have had their P24 cadence carefully preserved. That has been SOP for DVD-Vs by the major Studios and authoring facilities for several years. Video editing gear has become cadence aware to preserve "edited on tape" TV. Production chains handle native P24 at most stages now, such as D5 tape machines, video editing, etc., so P24 can be encoded Progressive_Sequence=1, or =0 with repeat field flags and
consistent
frames/field pairs.
HD DVD-V players should render graphics at P24 as well as
the video,
and only apply field scanning and 3:2 pulldown to the composited output (only necessary because display manufacturers don't support HDMI 1080P24 mode). A display won't be confused by P24
output with
3:2 pulldown.
The interlace problems you mention used to be a big
problem for DVD-V
for the first few years when 480P output players and progressive displays were rare. Now there are many tens of millions of progressive display systems that have resulted in mostly good production behavior.
The industry still has no clue how to make HDMI and 1080P work. Displays are still forced to guess what kind of video content is coming over the wire and what signal processing is being
done by the
source device and the display device.
Kilroy Hughes
-----Original Message-----
From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Tom Barry
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 16:04
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
Kilroy Hughes wrote:
> The 1080i30 output of the Samsung BD player will be "inverse telecined" > by the 1080 displays out there, 12 fields will be thrown away, and the
> other 48 will be losslessly combined into 24 frames,
which can be
> blinked by the display at 60, 72, 120Hz, etc. for
motion and contrast
> improvement. No scaling/resampling, filtering,
"deinterlacing", etc.
> needed. >
That is sort of a best case scenario. If there are bad
edits, moving
video menus, or video (or different cadence) PIP then it
is very hard
to
just throw away fields. And even harder to automatically
determine
that
you should be doing that.
But if the deinterlacer is uncertain it may fall into an
attempt at
motion compensated or adaptive deinterlacing, assuming the worst. This doesn't work well with (confused) telecined material, causes artifacts, and likely will involve some additional
filtering by the
display to hide
those.
So while deinterlacing is absolutely necessary in our new world of all progressive displays I still won't trust it much.
- Tom
The writer didn't understand, so you drew the wrong conclusion.
The fact is that the HD displays worth considering are
progressive
display technology (DLP, PDP, LCD, LCOS, etc.). If they have
1080lines
of resolution, they always DISPLAY 1080P, even if you input an interlaced signal, even if the video was sampled interlaced. The only
question is how much damage is inflicted by source and display processing to create that progressive image.
The 1080i30 output of the Samsung BD player will be "inverse
telecined"
by the 1080 displays out there, 12 fields will be thrown
away, and
the
other 48 will be losslessly combined into 24 frames,
which can be
blinked by the display at 60, 72, 120Hz, etc. for motion and contrast
> improvement. No scaling/resampling, filtering,
"deinterlacing",
etc.
needed.
The 1080i30 HDMI connection produces better progressive
video than
the
1080P60 output.
The 1080P60 output applies 3:2 pulldown to generate 60 fields in the player, then deinterlaces with a Genesis chip. Ugliness happens when resampling, motion compensating, and
filtering 60 540
line fields, to synthesize 60 1080 line frames. 60 frames of judder and distortion
are
then passed over the video interface (HDMI) and
processed by the
display's image processor (random behavior different for different displays) and displayed at 60 frames per second (with 32ms/48ms
judder).
As many reviewers have noted, the i30 signal connection from this
player
produces cleaner, higher resolution progressive display with the same disc, player, and display than the 60P signal connection.
Microsoft is a big fan of encoding and displaying progressive images, but the hype about P60 vs. i30 signal
interconnect is a red
herring.
Kilroy Hughes
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--- >
*From:* opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Mark Aitken
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2006 08:32
*To:* OpenDTV
*Subject:* [opendtv] Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
I find it "interesting" that MicroSoft NOW finds the P vs. I argument "meaningless"! Perhaps marketing hype only works in one direction???
http://www.tvpredictions.com/1080p081506.htm
News & Commentary
Microsoft Exec: 1080p HDTV Is Meaningless
The company's XBox strategist attacks Sony's decision to include the
new
format in the PlayStation 3. By Phillip Swann
Washington, D.C. (August 15, 2006) -- A key Microsoft strategist says the industry is 'hyping' 1080p, the new format that purportedly offers
a
sharper High-Definition TV picture.
Andre Vrignaud, Microsoft's chief strategist for the XBox game
console,
says the current 1080i format ("i" stands for interlaced; "p" for progressive.) provides a picture just as good.
Sony, Microsoft's chief gaming rival, is launching a new game console (Play Station 3) in November that will support 1080p for HDTV movies
and
games while Microsoft's XBox 360 will not. The latter console displays
games in 1080i and will include a 1080i HD-DVD adapter
later in the
year.
"What's interesting is that a lot of folks don't realize how
meaningless
1080p actually is in this generation," Vrignaud writes
at his blog,
Ozymandias.com. "Most modern HD displays (Plasmas, LCD,
DLP, etc.)
display content progressively, //even if they first received an interlaced signal (so) //when you're watching a 1080 signal on a
modern
HD display, you're //almost always// watching a 1080p signal."
Vrignaud, Microsoft's director of technical strategy for
XBox Live,
added that gamers, and HDTV owners, should not be "sucked
into all
the
1080p hype."
Swanni Sez:
The battle over picture formats is just starting. Sony (and TV manufacturers who are launching 1080p sets) will say the
new format
offers a better picture. But Microsoft, and perhaps some network programmers who would like to keep filming in 1080i, will say you
can't
tell the difference.
It's too early to say which side will win, But the short
term loser
is
the American consumer who is already confused enough by high-def.
Click TVPredictions.com <http://www.tvpredictions.com>
to see the
rest
of today's Swanni Sez.
(c) TVPredictions.com
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