David;

there's not a single **** reason they should.  Nobody's saying "this is the only way you can watch" or "we won't let you watch this."  Indeed, methods of distribution are expanding, and at heart, this about people complaining about the terms under which they have surrendered.  Copyright holders have new options, but the choices are theirs.  By opting for new channels, they expand distribution and choice.

John Willkie

-----Original Message-----
From: David Broberg
Sent: Jun 27, 2008 7:42 AM
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: MPAA wants to stop DVRs from recording some movies

Wow, this discussion has gone off the deep end.

 

To bring it back consider the contract you make with your local theater when you go in to see a move, concert or play. When you pay for that ticket, you agree to follow the rules set by the distributor (the local theater), which are in turn dictated to them by the studios or rights owners. These rules typically include an outright prohibition on recording devices in the theater. These rules are often enforced by private security guards or even local police.  The terms associated with you seeing that performance, include a limitation on your ability to record or copy it in any way – even what might be defensible under fair-use doctrine.  If you don’t want to abide by those rules, you don’t by the ticket and don’t go in – it is a voluntary contract.  

 

What MPAA seems to be proposing is exactly the same as what you already have, but with an electronic distribution direct to the home. You still have the option to enter the contract or not (buy the ticket). Nobody is trying to force those movies on you, and they are not coming into your home “free and clear”. If you chose to buy the ticket, you’ll have to agree to the same terms as those entering the theater – no recording devices.

 

This is not about taking away recording rights at all. This is about expanding distribution to a new and more convenient form of service. Granted that service may not appeal to everyone, but for those it does, why should the government forbid it?

 

-David Broberg

 

---

From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Willkie
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 11:13 AM
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: MPAA wants to stop DVRs from recording some movies

 

Dan;

You are missing an important distinction.  With your antenna, there is no contract between the station and you, aside from a "social contract."  (This is largely the area where the EFF preys.)

With the MVPD, you have a contract.  So, you need to read that and see what rights it explicitly gives you.  I think you will find that the only people who explicitly get the right of which you speak pay for it, through a PVR service.

So, we can't answer this in the abstractl you must read the contract. 

One thing to keep in mind is that the MVPD can't grant to you a priviledge that it's contract(s) with the content owner/distributor grants to them.  Please, let's not get into "third-party warranties" and "quasi-contracts" other than if you get something that you are not entitled to, a court might hold that, in the absence of a contract and you having some benefit that is only available under contract, you could be held to be the beneficiary of a "quasi-contract"  And, you are screwed, in that case!

John Willkie

-----Original Message-----
From: dan.grimes@xxxxxxxx
Sent: Jun 26, 2008 9:48 AM
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: MPAA wants to stop DVRs from recording some movies

Naturally. But if a movie is released to an MVPD, I would think that this is giving one access to the movie. Now that one has access, would it not be "fair use" to record the movie on a DVR to view later? Or am I missing your point?

I guess I don't understand the difference between my VHS machine connected to an antenna and a DVR connected to a MVPD. Isn't it the same philosophy? I know that I am allowed, and that a broadcaster cannot prevent, me from recording a program on my VCR when tuned into their channel. However, would this apply to a program on a cable system?

But perhaps I am missing the point of the MPAA. Are they saying that for VOD and PPV, the fair use philosophy does not apply?

I am all for those that own media to be able to protect their media and prevent others from using it for gain. That certainly would not be fair for someone else to make money off the owner's work, or even to view the work without the owner's required compensation. But if the owner prevents me from viewing something that was paid for, especially if I paid directly for it, it is certainly unfair to prevent me from being able to view it.

I guess then the question becomes whether I can view it on my schedule or must I be forced to view it on their's. I would argue that there is no harm in viewing it on my schedule. However, the MPAA might, not because my view would bring harm, but because others might use it for their unlawful gain. That is the unfortunate reality of this fallen world. But if, in the process, it prevents me from viewing the rightfully paid-for programming, then I am being taken.

Of course, using the media for making a point, such as quoting a book, is another issue altogether. But then, if I have paid for the program, like buying the book at the store, do I not have the right to quote the book? Do I not have the right to transfer a section of the movie to some other medium and display it to the public, to m ake a point? Does it matter how I receive the program (MPVD, OTA, DVD, etc.)?

Dan


Mark Schubin <tvmark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Mark Schubin <tvmark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent by: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/26/2008 08:56 AM Please respond to opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

To opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx cc Subject [opendtv] Re: MPAA wants to stop DVRs from recording some movies

Fair use allows you to quote from my book.  It does not allow you to bust into my home and go into my library to access the book.  Access and use are different.

TTFN,
Mark


dan.grimes@xxxxxxxx wrote:

I guess I'm getting my history and laws mixed up. I was under the impression that there is an element of "fair use" when it comes to media, no matter which delivery platform (OTA, MVPD, physical) the media is received. I realize there is no specific law that provides this "fair use" but there are plenty of court cases that have upheld this philosophy. Perhaps it is very complicated since there is no particular law out there that defines fair use. Certainly, there are laws as to what it means to hold copyright and if that is being infringed upon. Many court cases have attempted to provide the line between copyright and fair use.

So, one question is, does the ability to time-shift a movie (i.e. record on a DVR) that is received through an MVPD violate copyright? I would argue not, but certainly the MVPD wants to control the ability for the populous to record, thus protect, it's material.

The other question is, can the owner of media prevent you fr om recording the media; in other words, does this violate fair use?\

Dan


"Adam Goldberg" <adam_g@xxxxxxxxx>

"Adam Goldberg" <adam_g@xxxxxxxxx> Sent by: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 06/26/2008 06:43 AM Please respond to opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

To <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> cc Subject [opendtv] Re: MPAA wants to stop DVRs from recording some movies

...

Whether there’s a right or not gets down to lots of things, but among them is Fair Use, which is an element of the first amendment. Someone with more philosophy than me can determine whether that’s a civil right or whatever.

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