[opendtv] Re: MPAA wants to stop DVRs from recording some movies

  • From: "David Broberg" <d.broberg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:42:38 -0600

Wow, this discussion has gone off the deep end. 

 

To bring it back consider the contract you make with your local theater
when you go in to see a move, concert or play. When you pay for that
ticket, you agree to follow the rules set by the distributor (the local
theater), which are in turn dictated to them by the studios or rights
owners. These rules typically include an outright prohibition on
recording devices in the theater. These rules are often enforced by
private security guards or even local police.  The terms associated with
you seeing that performance, include a limitation on your ability to
record or copy it in any way - even what might be defensible under
fair-use doctrine.  If you don't want to abide by those rules, you don't
by the ticket and don't go in - it is a voluntary contract.  

 

What MPAA seems to be proposing is exactly the same as what you already
have, but with an electronic distribution direct to the home. You still
have the option to enter the contract or not (buy the ticket). Nobody is
trying to force those movies on you, and they are not coming into your
home "free and clear". If you chose to buy the ticket, you'll have to
agree to the same terms as those entering the theater - no recording
devices. 

 

This is not about taking away recording rights at all. This is about
expanding distribution to a new and more convenient form of service.
Granted that service may not appeal to everyone, but for those it does,
why should the government forbid it? 

 

-David Broberg 

 

________________________________

From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of John Willkie
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 11:13 AM
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: MPAA wants to stop DVRs from recording some
movies

 

Dan;

You are missing an important distinction.  With your antenna, there is
no contract between the station and you, aside from a "social contract."
(This is largely the area where the EFF preys.)

With the MVPD, you have a contract.  So, you need to read that and see
what rights it explicitly gives you.  I think you will find that the
only people who explicitly get the right of which you speak pay for it,
through a PVR service.

So, we can't answer this in the abstractl you must read the contract.  

One thing to keep in mind is that the MVPD can't grant to you a
priviledge that it's contract(s) with the content owner/distributor
grants to them.  Please, let's not get into "third-party warranties" and
"quasi-contracts" other than if you get something that you are not
entitled to, a court might hold that, in the absence of a contract and
you having some benefit that is only available under contract, you could
be held to be the beneficiary of a "quasi-contract"  And, you are
screwed, in that case!

John Willkie



        -----Original Message----- 
        From: dan.grimes@xxxxxxxx 
        Sent: Jun 26, 2008 9:48 AM 
        To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        Subject: [opendtv] Re: MPAA wants to stop DVRs from recording
some movies 
        
        
        

        Naturally. But if a movie is released to an MVPD, I would think
that this is giving one access to the movie. Now that one has access,
would it not be "fair use" to record the movie on a DVR to view later?
Or am I missing your point?
        
        I guess I don't understand the difference between my VHS machine
connected to an antenna and a DVR connected to a MVPD. Isn't it the same
philosophy? I know that I am allowed, and that a broadcaster cannot
prevent, me from recording a program on my VCR when tuned into their
channel. However, would this apply to a program on a cable system?
        
        But perhaps I am missing the point of the MPAA. Are they saying
that for VOD and PPV, the fair use philosophy does not apply?
        
        I am all for those that own media to be able to protect their
media and prevent others from using it for gain. That certainly would
not be fair for someone else to make money off the owner's work, or even
to view the work without the owner's required compensation. But if the
owner prevents me from viewing something that was paid for, especially
if I paid directly for it, it is certainly unfair to prevent me from
being able to view it. 
        
        I guess then the question becomes whether I can view it on my
schedule or must I be forced to view it on their's. I would argue that
there is no harm in viewing it on my schedule. However, the MPAA might,
not because my view would bring harm, but because others might use it
for their unlawful gain. That is the unfortunate reality of this fallen
world. But if, in the process, it prevents me from viewing the
rightfully paid-for programming, then I am being taken.
        
        Of course, using the media for making a point, such as quoting a
book, is another issue altogether. But then, if I have paid for the
program, like buying the book at the store, do I not have the right to
quote the book? Do I not have the right to transfer a section of the
movie to some other medium and display it to the public, to m ake a
point? Does it matter how I receive the program (MPVD, OTA, DVD, etc.)?
        
        Dan
        
        
        Inactive hide details for Mark Schubin
<tvmark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Mark Schubin <tvmark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        
        

Mark Schubin <tvmark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
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06/26/2008 08:56 AM 

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[opendtv] Re: MPAA wants to stop DVRs from recording some movies

 





        
        Fair use allows you to quote from my book.  It does not allow
you to bust into my home and go into my library to access the book.
Access and use are different.
        
        TTFN,
        Mark
        
        
        dan.grimes@xxxxxxxx <mailto:dan.grimes@xxxxxxxx>  wrote: 

        I guess I'm getting my history and laws mixed up. I was under
the impression that there is an element of "fair use" when it comes to
media, no matter which delivery platform (OTA, MVPD, physical) the media
is received. I realize there is no specific law that provides this "fair
use" but there are plenty of court cases that have upheld this
philosophy. Perhaps it is very complicated since there is no particular
law out there that defines fair use. Certainly, there are laws as to
what it means to hold copyright and if that is being infringed upon.
Many court cases have attempted to provide the line between copyright
and fair use.
        
        So, one question is, does the ability to time-shift a movie
(i.e. record on a DVR) that is received through an MVPD violate
copyright? I would argue not, but certainly the MVPD wants to control
the ability for the populous to record, thus protect, it's material.
        
        The other question is, can the owner of media prevent you fr om
recording the media; in other words, does this violate fair use?\
        
        Dan
        
        
        Inactive hide details for "Adam Goldberg"
<adam_g@xxxxxxxxx>"Adam Goldberg" <adam_g@xxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:adam_g@xxxxxxxxx> 

"Adam Goldberg" <adam_g@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:adam_g@xxxxxxxxx>  
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06/26/2008 06:43 AM 

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[opendtv] Re: MPAA wants to stop DVRs from recording some movies

 





        
        ...
        
        Whether there's a right or not gets down to lots of things, but
among them is Fair Use, which is an element of the first amendment.
Someone with more philosophy than me can determine whether that's a
civil right or whatever.

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