[opendtv] Re: First look at ATSC HD Broadcast
- From: Bob Miller <bob@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:15:02 -0400
John Willkie wrote:
>and, just what are your qualifications to judge whether a modulation system
>works? 8-VSB these days works in just about every market, with just about
>zero problems.
>
>
I am not judging whether it works in a public sense. Anyone can take
what I say about 8-VSB or not. We would like an 8-VSB receiver to work
well enough for a business plan that we would like to deploy. Not a
mobile system. This is a personal evaluation, can we do this with this
receiver? So far we can't. Mark Schubin would be a typical customer.
Someone living in a six story apartment building in Manhattan with no
line of sight. If too many people cannot receive the service, if too
many can't receive a channel or multiple channels, if there are too many
drop-outs we fail. To much trouble.
I suspect that is a problem with USDTV from the joy they expressed when
they heard of the 5th gen test last summer.
>Oh, yeah, you're out chasing buses. 8-VSB was intended as a replacement to
>NTSC. NTSC, legally and technically, it a fixed service. So, 8-VSB works
>at more than 99% of the locations, more than 99% of the time. It just
>doesn't work at the Schubin residence (with most receivers) and undoubtedly
>a few other challenged locations, and it may never work there.
>
>
But it does work at the Schubin site with the prototype receiver from LG
last summer. The technology now exist at least in a lab just haven't
seen it in a unit we can buy. 8-VSB emphatically does not work in 99% of
locations with current receivers. What is really surprising is how many
people have problems who do not know how to evaluate what could or
should be. They are silent about their problems because it is
politically incorrect to have them. Missing channels, drop outs etc are
not talked about or minimized.
Take the Westchester dealer who post on AVSForum that the latest LG HDTV
set works exceptionally well. Where he received NO channels at all with
ALL previous 8-VSB receivers he now gets 21 virtual channels. Now his
history is one of saying that there was NO problem with 8-VSB at all.
Never let on that he had any problem with reception and constantly
derided the idea that COFDM was better. All of a sudden we find that the
truth is he had no reception at all at his store. He had also no way to
compare to anything better. Now he does. But I have been comparing 8-VSB
to COFDM since the middle of 1999 and last summer could compare that
same LG 5th gen prototype that this dealers new HDTV set MAY have on
board. I could compare them in the same room and in the same environment
and even though that 8-VSB prototype was the best we have seen and is
1000% better than its nearest 8-VSB receiver competitor it is not in the
same league with any COFDM receiver from 1999. No comparison.
>And, you were too chicken to try COFDM at the Schubin residence when you had
>the chance. We know the reason why: you tested the system in the street in
>front of his apartment, and it didn't work there -- easier to receive than
>in the apartment -- and you couldn't afford "bad press."
>
>
Easier to receive mobile on the street than in an apartment? OK so I
will test these PCI 8-VSB cards mobile on the street in front of Mark's
place. Yes as far as signal strength if that were the issue. Lots of
signal at Mark's with 8-VSB. It is the reflections that are the problem.
After all he lives only blocks from massive 8-VSB transmitters at a high
elevation.
It was very simple we could not use more than one kW and had to keep our
beam slightly declined to not interfere with a co channel station north
of the city. Midtown was a massive wall of buildings directly between us
and Mark's place. We were at Canal St. at about 400 ft. The signal could
not penetrate Midtown. It worked in Midtown up to the middle fifties and
it worked up the avenues and on all cross town streets but not above
Midtown on the cross streets. It did not work on Mark's street at all.
It worked on the West Side almost up to the GW Bridge but not in the
cross streets above midtown. Worked in a lot of New Jersey and out on
Long Island past Coney Island. We were going to set up a transmitter on
East 86th street facing Midtown which would have worked at Mark's but
there was no justification since what we had was enough.
In 2000 we did have reception on 72nd street mobile from 20 miles out on
Long Island with one kW but no Midtown in the way.
I have no problem with "bad press" just bad policy. I have no no need of
good or bad press just a decent receiver or modulation. Who else is
testing receivers? I will tell you. Early adopters. If 8-VSB worked just
fine they would not be in a frenzy about every new receiver that comes
along. And with nothing to compare performance to but past receivers
they never find out what is possible accept when a better one comes
along. Which they are now doing with the Dvico and a couple of LG 5th
Gen HDTV sets.
If the Dvico or other 5th gen LG chip receivers are near as good as the
prototype we tested ( and so far they are not) then we will start
hearing the truth about all current and past 8-VSB receivers in the
comparison.
For example the dealer in NYC on AVSForum, DTV TiVo Dealer or Robert,
said before he received his first 5th gen integrated LG HD TV set...(not
talking to me BTW)
"Before I starter ValueElectronics.com 8 years ago I worked for 20+
years as a RF systems engineer for Ikegami, Nucomm and Hitach Denshi. I
have a great deal of respect for you and all broadcast engineers. I know
and agree with your anger over the FCC adopting 8-VSB modulation over
CODFM. However, we have to live with 8-VSB modulation and the LG
LST-4200A is the best ATSC tuner available. Maybe some day when the next
generation ATSC tuner becomes available it will even improve on this
excellent 4th generation set top decoder, but today it's your best choice."
This 4200A is the best receiver according to Robert but a few days later
after testing a 5th gen receiver he says...
"Well I am seriously impressed with LG's 5th generation ATSC tuner.
Today we put out two new LG HDTVs, Model #52SX4D 52" and Model DLP w/the
HD3 DLP chip set and the 30FZ4 30" CRT Direct View, both have built-in
5th generation ATSC LG tuners.
I connected the indoor Silver Senor OTA antenna and scanned for local
channels. It picked up 21 HD OTA channels, more than any other ATSC
tuner. The picture is rock solid on all 21 channels. We are surrounded
by 6 story apartment buildings in very direction, and our store is on
the street level. No other ATSC tuner could even pick up one channel.
You can see these TVs at
http://valueelectronics.com/DLP,%20...iew%20HDTVs.htm
I am amazed and as impressed as I could ever imagine possible. This
advanced technology ATSC tuner make ATSC work reliably."
-Robert
So here is someone with a lot of RF experience who only knows what he
knows until something else comes along. His idea of "excellent" is only
by comparison with what else is out there and he has no experience with
COFDM receivers. So "excellent" today becomes "No other ATSC tuner could
even pick up one channel."
Quite a difference I would say. What would he say if he saw a comparison
with a COFDM receiver in identical circumstances? Well he has already
been " amazed and as impressed as I could ever imagine possible" so I
guess he would just fall down dead from amazement.
Just shows how far from reality you can be without having a clue.
What is amazing to me is his last statement from someone so long
dedicated to supporting how good ATSC is, "This advanced technology ATSC
tuner make ATSC work reliably."
Bob Miller
>John Willkie
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bob Miller" <bob@xxxxxxxxxx>
>To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 7:44 AM
>Subject: [opendtv] Re: First look at ATSC HD Broadcast
>
>
>
>
>>The only "next big thing" that I have been chasing since 1999 is a
>>modulation that works or an 8-VSB receiver that works well enough to
>>support a business plan in a populated area.
>>
>>Shouldn't be to much to ask in the biggest most affluent market in the
>>world.
>>
>>Bob Miller
>>
>>John Golitsis wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>The CODEC used for something like broadcast television cannot be a
>>>moving target! Otherwise, we'll all be like Bob Miller...chasing the
>>>"next big thing" and accomplishing absolutely nothing.
>>>
>>>
>>>On 7-Jun-05, at 4:26 PM, dgrimes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Of course, why am I even talking about this when there are no AVC
>>>>or VC-1
>>>>receivers. If we are to embrace newer codecs, we need to find a
>>>>way to
>>>>quickly replace receivers/decoders without breaking the consumer's
>>>>bank.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
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