[opendtv] Re: FCC TAKES STEPS TO ALLOW NEW LOW POWER DEVICES ON VACANT TV CHANNELS

  • From: "negrjp" <negrjp@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "opendtv" <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 07:02:58 -0300

Gas Line?!!!

How about to carry RF broadband into petroleum oleoduct?

Is it realy advantadgeous?

Jonas
from Brazil


> Hi All,
> 
> In the UK any hole in the ground is used to carry fibre, I guess it wont be
> long before the same is true of RF broadband.
> 
> The second thing is that we no longer use metal gas pipes for new
> installations except for the bit in the home. Virtually all the gas
> distribution has been changed over the last thirty years to Welded Plastic
> Pipe. These pipes can be small to humungous but I guess average out to
> around a foot diameter for metro distribution.
> BR Peter
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of John Willkie
> Sent: 15 October 2006 00:20
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: FCC TAKES STEPS TO ALLOW NEW LOW POWER DEVICES ON
> VACANT TV CHANNELS
> 
> Your complete lack of engineering knowledge is shown by your thought that
> broadband over gas lines will leak RF to any significant amount.  (bpl is
> another matter; it's all about leakage.)
> 
> First, there is the fact that broadband over gas lines involves ferrous
> pipes.  Have you ever heard about a faraday cage?  (It blocks rf.)  Gas
> lines are almost like that; think of them as very thick waveguide. Most
> waveguide is non-ferrous metal, but they don't leak much.
> 
> Second, there is the physical issues about rf within waveguide.  Depending
> on frequency, the higher frequencies tend to bunch up just inside the inner
> perimiter of the waveguide.  That means very little leakage.
> 
> Third, think of triple-shielded RF cable.  These have shields, and sometimes
> drains, just a milimeter thick.  Multiply that by a factor of 10 or more,
> and you have gas pipes.  The ones in the street are much thicker, by the
> way; I'm talking about the ones leading into homes, where the rf leaks would
> be closer to consumer devices.
> 
> Fourth, have you ever heard about a "ground" and what it does? (It tends to
> cancel out RF that tries to travel through it.)  Have you ever thought that
> the best ground is the, GROUND?  Have you ever seen a gas pipe that was
> above the GROUND?  Gas pipes are buried a foot or more below the ground,
> with just the meter and a few taps above the ground.  Not much chance to
> radiate there.  Also, these taps tend to be in rooms that don't have
> receivers, like garages (water heaters) and kitchens.
> 
> Just one part of this could radiate much, and that depends on how the
> termination is done.
> 
> And, even if they do radiate, there is little sense in using broadcast
> frequencies for transmission, since data density is increased by using
> higher frequencies.
> 
> What is being protected -- nowadays, in the breach -- are services that work
> without any need for electrical power between the point of origin and the
> receive point.  In an emergency, it's priceless.  Day to day, it's very
> valueable, as will no doubt be proved anew a few years down the line.
> 
> Speaking of pacemakers, some of these devices will interfere with legacy and
> current monitoring equipment routinely used in hospitals.  A bad glitch or
> two could result in patients needing a pacemaker to be installed.
> 
> John Willkie
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Bob Miller <robmxa@xxxxxxxxx>
> >Sent: Oct 14, 2006 1:01 PM
> >To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [opendtv] Re: FCC TAKES STEPS TO ALLOW NEW LOW POWER DEVICES ON
> VACANT TV CHANNELS
> >
> >Somebody gets it! Be still my pacemaker (and numerous hospital type
> devices??)
> >
> >No one going to mention broadband over power lines or gas pipes? Of
> >course neither of those will leak right?
> >
> >It looks like a full court press on OTA spectrum to me. Has since 2000.
> >
> >Like former Chairman Powell said in reference to the low numbers of
> >viewers who still depend on OTA, "What are we protecting?"
> >
> >Doesn't look like they plan on protecting anything much. And what
> >about that auction that is coming up? Many say it will dwarf the cell
> >auction we just had that brought in $14 billion. So some upstart
> >Congress-critter has to be day dreaming about just what channels 2-51
> >would bring.
> >
> >The only fly in this ointment is the success that OTA is having over
> >there, over just about any there. And this will all come to pass in
> >early 2009??? Just after China shows off its new OTA at the Olympics
> >in the summer of 2008.
> >
> >All the ammunition is dry and the pile is getting bigger. All someone
> >has to do is lob in a small mortar round and we know what that looks
> >like.
> >
> >Bob Miller
> >
> >On 10/13/06, flyback1 <flyback1@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> I see this as a not so subtle jab by the FCC at the free to air
> >> broadcasters.
> >>
> >> Hunold, Ken wrote:
> >>
> >> >Broadcasters *already* use this space, if only indirectly.  Wireless
> >> >microphones, for one, already use these frequencies in the TV band.
> >> >This is a huge hornet's nest that has been kicked recently by these
> >> >attempts to allow unlicensed devices to use these frequencies.  There is
> >> >much to suggest that these new devices will not play well with others.
> >> >News, Sports, and Entertainment productions stand to be impacted greatly
> >> >by this step.  Just because there isn't a TV station operating on a
> >> >frequency does not mean that it is "unused."
> >> >
> >> >Ken Hunold
> >> >
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >> >On Behalf Of Manfredi, Albert E
> >> >Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 4:08 PM
> >> >To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >Subject: [opendtv] FCC TAKES STEPS TO ALLOW NEW LOW POWER DEVICES ON
> >> >VACANT TV CHANNELS
> >> >
> >> >A lot of positive opinions about this move to use the so-called TV white
> >> >spaces, from each of the commissioners, is also available at
> >> >http://www.fcc.gov/, under 12 October.
> >> >
> >> >The going-in assumption seems to be that this "unused" space would be
> >> >used by Internet broadband access providers, and it would be unlicensed.
> >> >But heck, if it's available, then why don't broadcasters themselves go
> >> >for it? Depending what the specifics are to be, e.g. on power limits,
> >> >broadcasters might make good use of it too, no?
> >> >
> >> >Are they permitted?
> >> >
> >> >Bert
> >> >
> >> >-------------------------------------
> >> >http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-267867A1.pdf
> >> >
> >> >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: NEWS MEDIA CONTACT:
> >> >October 12, 2006       Bruce Romano
> >> >(202) 418-2470
> >> >
> >> >FCC TAKES STEPS TO ALLOW NEW LOW POWER
> >> >DEVICES ON VACANT TV CHANNELS
> >> >
> >> >Washington, D.C. -  The Commission today adopted a First Report and
> >> >Order and Further Notice of Proposed Rulemaking taking the first
> >> >important steps toward allowing new low power devices to operate in the
> >> >broadcast television spectrum at locations where channels in that
> >> >spectrum are not in use by television stations or other authorized
> >> >services.   This action will enable the development of new and
> >> >innovative types of devices and services for businesses and consumers.
> >> >
> >> >In the First Report and Order, the Commission concluded that fixed low
> >> >power devices can be allowed to operate on TV channels in areas where
> >> >those frequencies are not being used for TV or other incumbent licensed
> >> >services.  The Commission declined to permit operation on TV channel 37
> >> >that is used by radio astronomy and wireless medical telemetry services;
> >> >and on TV channels 52-69, which have been reallocated for public safety
> >> >and other mobile services.  It also declined to permit the operation of
> >> >personal/portable devices on TV channels 14-20, which are used by public
> >> >safety service in 13 cities, leaving for further consideration the issue
> >> >of whether fixed devices might be used in that band.  Marketing of such
> >> >devices may commence on February 18, 2009, after the digital television
> >> >(DTV) transition is complete and all TV stations are in operation on
> >> >their permanent DTV channels.
> >> >
> >> >In the Further Notice, the Commission invited further comment on a
> >> >number of issues that were raised in response to the Notice of Proposed
> >> >Rule Making.  It solicited additional information that is needed to
> >> >determine whether personal/portable devices can operate in any of the TV
> >> >channels without causing harmful interference.  It also invited comment
> >> >to explore whether low power devices should be permitted on TV channels
> >> >2-4, which are used by TV interface devices such as VCRs, and whether
> >> >fixed low power devices can be permitted on TV channels 14-20.
> >> >
> >> >The Commission made detailed technical proposals to facilitate use of a
> >> >dynamic frequency selection (DFS) mechanism to ensure that TV band
> >> >devices operate only on vacant TV channels.  In addition, it sought
> >> >further comment on implementation details for the geo-location and
> >> >control signal interference avoidance approaches discussed in the Notice
> >> >in this proceeding.
> >> >
> >> >The Commission reaffirmed its commitment to developing a complete record
> >> >to ensure that the final rules will protect TV broadcasting and other
> >> >service against harmful interference.  In particular, it invited parties
> >> >to submit test results showing that TV band devices will not cause
> >> >harmful interference.  In addition, the Commission noted that it plans
> >> >to conduct extensive testing itself to assess the potential interference
> >> >from low power devices operating in the TV bands before adopting final
> >> >rules.
> >> >
> >> >The Commission also invited comment on the desirability of requiring
> >> >licensing for devices operating in the TV bands. While the Commission
> >> >noted that a majority of the commenters have expressed interest in
> >> >operating low power devices in the TV bands on an unlicensed basis, it
> >> >sought comments on the relative benefits of both the licensed and
> >> >unlicensed  approaches.
> >> >
> >> >Action by the Commission October 12, 2006, by First Report and Order and
> >> >Further Notice of Proposed Rule Making (FCC 06-156).  Chairman Martin,
> >> >Commissioners Copps, Adelstein, Tate, and McDowell.  Separate statements
> >> >issued by Chairman Martin, Commissioners Copps, Adelstein, Tate and
> >> >McDowell.
> >> >
> >> >Office of Engineering and Technology contact:  Mr. Hugh L. Van Tuyl,
> >> >(202) 418-7506, e-mail Hugh.VanTuyl@xxxxxxxx
> >> >
> >> >ET Docket Nos. 04-186 and 02-380.
> >> >
> >> >FCC-
> >> >
> >> >
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