[opendtv] Re: FCC TAKES STEPS TO ALLOW NEW LOW POWER DEVICES ON VACANT TV CHANNELS

  • From: "peter wilson" <peter.wilson@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 08:06:46 +0100

Hi All,

In the UK any hole in the ground is used to carry fibre, I guess it wont be
long before the same is true of RF broadband.

The second thing is that we no longer use metal gas pipes for new
installations except for the bit in the home. Virtually all the gas
distribution has been changed over the last thirty years to Welded Plastic
Pipe. These pipes can be small to humungous but I guess average out to
around a foot diameter for metro distribution.
BR Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of John Willkie
Sent: 15 October 2006 00:20
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: FCC TAKES STEPS TO ALLOW NEW LOW POWER DEVICES ON
VACANT TV CHANNELS

Your complete lack of engineering knowledge is shown by your thought that
broadband over gas lines will leak RF to any significant amount.  (bpl is
another matter; it's all about leakage.)

First, there is the fact that broadband over gas lines involves ferrous
pipes.  Have you ever heard about a faraday cage?  (It blocks rf.)  Gas
lines are almost like that; think of them as very thick waveguide. Most
waveguide is non-ferrous metal, but they don't leak much.

Second, there is the physical issues about rf within waveguide.  Depending
on frequency, the higher frequencies tend to bunch up just inside the inner
perimiter of the waveguide.  That means very little leakage.

Third, think of triple-shielded RF cable.  These have shields, and sometimes
drains, just a milimeter thick.  Multiply that by a factor of 10 or more,
and you have gas pipes.  The ones in the street are much thicker, by the
way; I'm talking about the ones leading into homes, where the rf leaks would
be closer to consumer devices.

Fourth, have you ever heard about a "ground" and what it does? (It tends to
cancel out RF that tries to travel through it.)  Have you ever thought that
the best ground is the, GROUND?  Have you ever seen a gas pipe that was
above the GROUND?  Gas pipes are buried a foot or more below the ground,
with just the meter and a few taps above the ground.  Not much chance to
radiate there.  Also, these taps tend to be in rooms that don't have
receivers, like garages (water heaters) and kitchens.

Just one part of this could radiate much, and that depends on how the
termination is done.

And, even if they do radiate, there is little sense in using broadcast
frequencies for transmission, since data density is increased by using
higher frequencies.

What is being protected -- nowadays, in the breach -- are services that work
without any need for electrical power between the point of origin and the
receive point.  In an emergency, it's priceless.  Day to day, it's very
valueable, as will no doubt be proved anew a few years down the line.

Speaking of pacemakers, some of these devices will interfere with legacy and
current monitoring equipment routinely used in hospitals.  A bad glitch or
two could result in patients needing a pacemaker to be installed.

John Willkie

-----Original Message-----
>From: Bob Miller <robmxa@xxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Oct 14, 2006 1:01 PM
>To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [opendtv] Re: FCC TAKES STEPS TO ALLOW NEW LOW POWER DEVICES ON
VACANT TV CHANNELS
>
>Somebody gets it! Be still my pacemaker (and numerous hospital type
devices??)
>
>No one going to mention broadband over power lines or gas pipes? Of
>course neither of those will leak right?
>
>It looks like a full court press on OTA spectrum to me. Has since 2000.
>
>Like former Chairman Powell said in reference to the low numbers of
>viewers who still depend on OTA, "What are we protecting?"
>
>Doesn't look like they plan on protecting anything much. And what
>about that auction that is coming up? Many say it will dwarf the cell
>auction we just had that brought in $14 billion. So some upstart
>Congress-critter has to be day dreaming about just what channels 2-51
>would bring.
>
>The only fly in this ointment is the success that OTA is having over
>there, over just about any there. And this will all come to pass in
>early 2009??? Just after China shows off its new OTA at the Olympics
>in the summer of 2008.
>
>All the ammunition is dry and the pile is getting bigger. All someone
>has to do is lob in a small mortar round and we know what that looks
>like.
>
>Bob Miller
>
>On 10/13/06, flyback1 <flyback1@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> I see this as a not so subtle jab by the FCC at the free to air
>> broadcasters.
>>
>> Hunold, Ken wrote:
>>
>> >Broadcasters *already* use this space, if only indirectly.  Wireless
>> >microphones, for one, already use these frequencies in the TV band.
>> >This is a huge hornet's nest that has been kicked recently by these
>> >attempts to allow unlicensed devices to use these frequencies.  There is
>> >much to suggest that these new devices will not play well with others.
>> >News, Sports, and Entertainment productions stand to be impacted greatly
>> >by this step.  Just because there isn't a TV station operating on a
>> >frequency does not mean that it is "unused."
>> >
>> >Ken Hunold
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> >On Behalf Of Manfredi, Albert E
>> >Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 4:08 PM
>> >To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >Subject: [opendtv] FCC TAKES STEPS TO ALLOW NEW LOW POWER DEVICES ON
>> >VACANT TV CHANNELS
>> >
>> >A lot of positive opinions about this move to use the so-called TV white
>> >spaces, from each of the commissioners, is also available at
>> >http://www.fcc.gov/, under 12 October.
>> >
>> >The going-in assumption seems to be that this "unused" space would be
>> >used by Internet broadband access providers, and it would be unlicensed.
>> >But heck, if it's available, then why don't broadcasters themselves go
>> >for it? Depending what the specifics are to be, e.g. on power limits,
>> >broadcasters might make good use of it too, no?
>> >
>> >Are they permitted?
>> >
>> >Bert
>> >
>> >-------------------------------------
>> >http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-267867A1.pdf
>> >
>> >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: NEWS MEDIA CONTACT:
>> >October 12, 2006       Bruce Romano
>> >(202) 418-2470
>> >
>> >FCC TAKES STEPS TO ALLOW NEW LOW POWER
>> >DEVICES ON VACANT TV CHANNELS
>> >
>> >Washington, D.C. -  The Commission today adopted a First Report and
>> >Order and Further Notice of Proposed Rulemaking taking the first
>> >important steps toward allowing new low power devices to operate in the
>> >broadcast television spectrum at locations where channels in that
>> >spectrum are not in use by television stations or other authorized
>> >services.   This action will enable the development of new and
>> >innovative types of devices and services for businesses and consumers.
>> >
>> >In the First Report and Order, the Commission concluded that fixed low
>> >power devices can be allowed to operate on TV channels in areas where
>> >those frequencies are not being used for TV or other incumbent licensed
>> >services.  The Commission declined to permit operation on TV channel 37
>> >that is used by radio astronomy and wireless medical telemetry services;
>> >and on TV channels 52-69, which have been reallocated for public safety
>> >and other mobile services.  It also declined to permit the operation of
>> >personal/portable devices on TV channels 14-20, which are used by public
>> >safety service in 13 cities, leaving for further consideration the issue
>> >of whether fixed devices might be used in that band.  Marketing of such
>> >devices may commence on February 18, 2009, after the digital television
>> >(DTV) transition is complete and all TV stations are in operation on
>> >their permanent DTV channels.
>> >
>> >In the Further Notice, the Commission invited further comment on a
>> >number of issues that were raised in response to the Notice of Proposed
>> >Rule Making.  It solicited additional information that is needed to
>> >determine whether personal/portable devices can operate in any of the TV
>> >channels without causing harmful interference.  It also invited comment
>> >to explore whether low power devices should be permitted on TV channels
>> >2-4, which are used by TV interface devices such as VCRs, and whether
>> >fixed low power devices can be permitted on TV channels 14-20.
>> >
>> >The Commission made detailed technical proposals to facilitate use of a
>> >dynamic frequency selection (DFS) mechanism to ensure that TV band
>> >devices operate only on vacant TV channels.  In addition, it sought
>> >further comment on implementation details for the geo-location and
>> >control signal interference avoidance approaches discussed in the Notice
>> >in this proceeding.
>> >
>> >The Commission reaffirmed its commitment to developing a complete record
>> >to ensure that the final rules will protect TV broadcasting and other
>> >service against harmful interference.  In particular, it invited parties
>> >to submit test results showing that TV band devices will not cause
>> >harmful interference.  In addition, the Commission noted that it plans
>> >to conduct extensive testing itself to assess the potential interference
>> >from low power devices operating in the TV bands before adopting final
>> >rules.
>> >
>> >The Commission also invited comment on the desirability of requiring
>> >licensing for devices operating in the TV bands. While the Commission
>> >noted that a majority of the commenters have expressed interest in
>> >operating low power devices in the TV bands on an unlicensed basis, it
>> >sought comments on the relative benefits of both the licensed and
>> >unlicensed  approaches.
>> >
>> >Action by the Commission October 12, 2006, by First Report and Order and
>> >Further Notice of Proposed Rule Making (FCC 06-156).  Chairman Martin,
>> >Commissioners Copps, Adelstein, Tate, and McDowell.  Separate statements
>> >issued by Chairman Martin, Commissioners Copps, Adelstein, Tate and
>> >McDowell.
>> >
>> >Office of Engineering and Technology contact:  Mr. Hugh L. Van Tuyl,
>> >(202) 418-7506, e-mail Hugh.VanTuyl@xxxxxxxx
>> >
>> >ET Docket Nos. 04-186 and 02-380.
>> >
>> >FCC-
>> >
>> >
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