[opendtv] Re: Democrats Air Concerns About Analog Switchover

  • From: "John Willkie" <johnwillkie@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:35:38 -0800

In the context that we were discussing, I think the first question is a
non-sequitur.  I would exceed NTSC at some point.  But, when us engineers
talk about signal level, we talk about the probability of a percentage of
receiving locations in an area that receive a certain signal level a certain
percentage of the time.  The FCC standards (and I assume CRC isn't much
different) use the F(50,50) criteria for reception (50 percent of the
locations getting the signal 50 percent of the time).  With a 30-foot
external antenna.  For interference, it's often F(50,90) for 50 percent of
the locations, 90 percent of the time.  Or F(50,10).


As to the second question, maybe I'm missing something.  Aren't touchdowns
shown again and again and again within the program, then repeated endlessly
on local, network and cable shows?


That said, having the audio or video signal drop out more than 0 times
during a broadcast is piss-poor performance.  


Ever lived near the approach or take-off pattern of an airport?  I have.  I
didn't mind the noise all that much, except when the takeoff pattern was
reversed due to prevailing conditions.  The first note I had of it was when
the airport opened at 7 a.m. and the big birds were taking off in my


What it did screw up was my appreciation of comedy, because the little noise
a landing jet makes seems to always peak during the punch line of jokes.
When people would ask me about living under the jets, I would say "I hate
missing punch lines."  I would point out that they're seldom repeated, or
(shudder) explained in context.


There are an awful lot of people living near airports, but few move as a
result of this issue.  I lived just 800 feet from the nearest point on the
airport for four years, and when I moved away, it was for a better view (and
still within the pattern, but a few precious miles further down the flight


John Willkie



From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of John Golitsis
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 10:19 AM
To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: Democrats Air Concerns About Analog Switchover


If I get NTSC reception, but it's of poor quality, how do I categorize
"perfect" ATSC reception?  Is it "exactly reproducing", "replicating", or
something else?


How about if my ATSC reception drops out during touchdowns and resumes in
time for commercials?  How do I compare that to constantly snowy or ghosty
NTSC?  Is there a scale of irritation I can use?  ;)



On 18-Nov-06, at 2:52 AM, John Willkie wrote:

Notice that "exactly reproduce" is a much narrower term than "replicate."
You might want to look up replicate in a real dictionary.


Also, nobody on this list has any legal authority, and Mark Aitken and I are
the only who comment on this list and participate in ATSC committees - and I
am only involved in the T3/S1 specialist group on metadata.


What people say on this list has no weight. 


And, in the case of a few people, what is said is 180 or so degrees from
anything real.


That said, 8-VSB will replicate NTSC, if broadcasters use the maximum power
permitted by them.  But, it won't "exactly reproduce" NTSC in the near field
for some time to come.  In the far field, it will exceed NTSC in coverage. 



John Willkie



From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of flyback1
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:34 PM
To:  <mailto:opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: Democrats Air Concerns About Analog Switchover


John Willkie wrote:

Many different situations, or three?

For every ATSC receiver the signal, antenna and reception conditions will be
different.  No two will be the same.


Nobody has ever said that 8-VSB will exactly reproduce NTSC.  So what

I am sure I have seen it written on this list more than a few times that
ATSC would replicate NTSC coverage. 


John Willkie



From:  <mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
<mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of flyback1
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 7:37 PM
To:  <mailto:opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [opendtv] Re: Democrats Air Concerns About Analog Switchover


John Willkie wrote:

"Doubtful.  See other comments about reception in his apartment made over
the last few years by Mark Schubin."


Your situation is nothing like Mark Schubin's. Indeed, in a previous post, I
accounted for his apartment.  High signal levels, many building reflections.
Buses going up and down the street, much urban RF.

I believe Mark Schubin has said several times he gets reasonable apartment
NTSC reception with rabbit ears on top of his set.


Your situation is different.

We have a replacement for NTSC that does not seem to work in many different


It's possible that no digital TV service can reach Mark's apartment.  The
COFDM proponents have been too chicken to try when they've had the chance.
Not so for ATSC proponents.


In my situation, using a MyHD-130 receiver, I cannot get signals very well
when I'm close to the transmit sites.  This involves two receive locations,
one in urban Tijuana, the other in suburban San Diego (with a clear line of
sight to the tx sites I cannot get.)  That is sub-optimal; but I've yet to
try a fifth gen unit.


John Willkie

I have a DirecTV HD receiver, model  H-20. It is the latest, greatest they
make. It works better than any of the eight others I have tried.  I think
the ATSC portion of this receiver is  fifth generation. Not certain where I
read this, may have been here or Audiokarma?
Still can't get clear, steady pictures without occasional breakups. Just not
acceptable to me.


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