For me the important question is how best to secure the benefits of Western Civilization for Westerners, their descendants, and other peoples wanting to join the party. The world, like Mr. Manfredi's bush is unruly. America, like Mr. Manfredi, is best equipped to do something about it, and is drawn by internal and external pressures to act. Acting, in both cases apparently, has consequences. You can say with confidence that "Monroe Doctrine...has been very good to Latin American nations". Having lived in Latin America, I can say with equal confidence that you would not have to travel far there to find thinking people who resent Monroe and other US policies and feel that those policies have worked to the detriment of Latin America and poor Latin Americans in particular. Dismissing them as leftists does not change the fact that the resentment is real. By all reports, current events have greatly increased hatred of the West in Islamic and particularly Islamic Arab countries. You trace current terrorism to the government of Iran of 1979. That disastrous government came to power in a popular revolution to overthrow a hated tyrant, the Shah, who was installed in a British and US backed coup that overthrew a government that was trying to nationalize the oil industry. Al-Qaida, as an organization, can be traced directly to the Mujahedin in Afghanistan who were partly financed and equipped by the US in their efforts to overthrow the Soviet-backed government of the day. My point is that reshaping the world is fraught with unintended consequences and inevitably leads to deep resentments. Liking being told what to do is rare enough among people to be considered a perversion! If I ever buy my sailboat and leave port, I will be happy that the US Navy, rather than chaos, rules the seas. The laying of the keel of the George H. W. Bush, the latest Nimitz class carrier, does not make me feel much safer though. Recent events lead me to fear the generational hatred of the Islamicists more than the possible consequences of pulling back a bit. Having given up on shutting up... John Wrigglesworth -----Original Message----- From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of John Willkie Sent: June 16, 2004 12:07 PM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: Channel approval process Heck, I don't know even roughly what the US would look like if the US returned to its founding principles of limited central government and staying out of foreign entanglements. I would note that we rather quickly abandoned it, at least as applies to this hemisphere: the Monroe Doctrine is still in force, and has been very good to Latin American nations, keeping Germany in the early 1900s from exploiting weaknesses in Colombia and Ecuador, for example. I'm not a significant critic of the military exploits of the current administration, however. I see this continuum that began with the adoption of a revolutionary, expansionist, militaristic and terrorist government in Iran in 1979 and their fostering of indigenous movements in many countries similarly situated. Perhaps others see that as a given. I never took the Soviet Union as a given. While not a particular fan of Ronald Reagan while he was in office, his "evil empire" (before the Nat'l Assoc of Evangelicals) and "tear down this wall" (in Berlin) speeches were like "dawn breaking over Marblehead" for me. Further along that time line, I see the attacks of September 11, 2001. I think that the administration's response is the beginning of the end of the continuum, or the lack of such a response as the beginning of the end of the United States and Western society. For eight years, we had an administration that was too concerned with 'good times' to pay attention to these facts, so the attacks got worse. Seems to me that the period between 9/11 and today is somewhat less troublesome as applies to domestic incidents than the period that preceded it. I don't see this administration as causing any bad situations as much as them finally dealing with what was extant. Of course, there are adaptive behaviors on the other sides. Heck, let them kill Iraqis. While Saddam was in power, who outside of a small circle of friends, gave a hoot? I had a lark the other day. Since September 11, 2001, more than a handful of U.S. citizens have pled guilty to fomenting terrorism in the U.S. As a item for further study, I thought it might be interesting to construct a database of those convicted or who pled guilty, and see what political parties, if any, these "Americans" were registered with. I should also point out that I am not a member of any political party. John Willkie -----Original Message----- From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of JCW0 Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 7:37 AM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: Channel approval process I do not pretend to know precisely what the world would look like if the US returned its founding principles of limited central government and staying out of foreign entanglements. I do know that the course of the current administration scares the heck out of me. JW P.S. I am trying to stay shut up... -----Original Message----- From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Manfredi, Albert E Sent: June 16, 2004 9:05 AM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: Channel approval process > However, U.S. troops are stationed in more than one > hundred countries. The U.S. spends more on arms than the > next five top spenders combined. Whew. That's a stretch. It also annoys me tremendously when my wife complains about how I trim the bushes. I do it only because no one else will, not because I'm trying to assert sole ownership or control over these plants, nor because it's a pastime I enjoy. I can assure you, there are legions of Americans who would prefer the US got its troops the hell out of all these places, including Iraq. But the rest of the world didn't exactly approve of how long it took the Clinton administration to move into the Balkans, did it? Or how the US did not take decisive action in Rwanda? I'll bet a goodly sum that the US will similarly be blamed for "not doing more" about the Sudan now. Perhaps the excuse "for not doing more" should be that this isn't an imperialist nation. Somehow, that would sound lame. Bert ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.