[opendtv] Re: 20051029 Schubin's Saturday Stuff (Mark's Monday Memo
- From: "John Willkie" <JohnWillkie@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:41:48 -0000
As Frank Eory and Dermot have pointed out here many times over many years,
(and which I may not be able to do justice), the 9 leg digital feedback
equalizer that is required for 8-VSB and isn't required for DVB is more
expensive as a chip than the manufacturing/ip cost for an entire DVB
receiver. And, there are slim chances that this will improve much in the
near- or mid-term future.
In 1999, DVB was ahead of VSB in usability and had a lower cost. Since that
time, DVB units have achieved an economy of scale and have opened up the
price/performance gap while improving usability and incorporating new uses
like mobile. 8vsb has just limped along, and there appear to have been some
failures of the ATSC market along the way.
John Willkie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Tony Neece
> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 9:15 AM
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: 20051029 Schubin's Saturday Stuff (Mark's Monday
> Memo
>
> John Wilkie remarked:=20
> ...the chip/IP cost (to the manufacturer) for those fantastic fifth
> generation sets is in the same neighborhood as the wholesale cost (to =
> the
> retailer) for a DVB-T receiver.
>
> That is quite a big difference. Any idea for the reason? Perhaps =
> because
> COFDM has been around longer and is a common telephone mux technology? =
> Or
> is it because the DVB receiver manufacturers have gone ahead producing =
> them
> in volume? Do you know about the cost of MPEG decoder chips? I'd guess =
> they
> are in great volume by now.
>
> By the way, I can't blame retailers for not taking on the yoke of =
> selling
> $250 - $500 STBs to John Q. I do think they have had a lot to do with
> stagnating the R & D efforts.
>
> Thanks for the info
> Tony
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =
> On
> Behalf Of John Willkie
> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 9:17 PM
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: 20051029 Schubin's Saturday Stuff (Mark's Monday =
> Memo
>
> 8-VSB doesn't work well enough until Mark Schubin gets digital service
> equivalent to or better than what he gets with today's analog. Might =
> never
> happen, but it's something to work for.
>
> Religions are based on putting trust or faith into something that you =
> cannot
> prove. I have yet to hear of any published engineering tests with the =
> new
> sets, only intriguing demos.
>
> You are relatively new to this list, but the chip/IP cost (to the
> manufacturer) for those fantastic fifth generation sets is in the same
> neighborhood as the wholesale cost (to the retailer) for a DVB-T =
> receiver.
>
> John Willkie
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =
> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On Behalf Of Tony Neece
> > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 4:57 AM
> > To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [opendtv] Re: 20051029 Schubin's Saturday Stuff (Mark's =
> Monday
> > Memo
> >=20
> > I really am puzzled as to how COFDM became a religion! COFDM is =3D
> > telephone
> > technology, after all. ATSC works, and quite well, according to =
> reports =3D
> > from
> > those that have 4th or 5th generation receivers. Are DVB-T decoders =
> =3D
> > really
> > a ton cheaper to make than ATSC receivers? I have not seen any real
> > engineering studies that show DVB-T to have significant advantage over =
> =3D
> > ATSC
> > receivers that have the improved equilizers. If anyone knows of one =
> let =3D
> > me
> > know. I am most interested. =3D20
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =
> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =3D
> > On
> > Behalf Of Manfredi, Albert E
> > Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:53 PM
> > To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [opendtv] Re: 20051029 Schubin's Saturday Stuff (Mark's =
> Monday =3D
> > Memo
> >=20
> > > - Representative John Dingell called the cost of
> > > adapters a "television tax of $20 to $60 per TV set."
> > > "Why should ordinary people pay for a government decision
> > > that makes their television sets obsolete?":
> > <http://au.news.yahoo.com/051026/11/wikp.html>
> >=20
> > That's easy.
> >=20
> > It wasn't supposed to be this way. The transition started
> > in 1998 for this exact reason. We squandered away 7 years
> > of transition with a "do nothing" policy.
> >=20
> > I'd agree completely that the ATSC receivers of 1998
> > weren't any good. But then again, the Dingells of Congress
> > could have pushed hard to modify ATSC with COFDM at the
> > physical layer, back then, to maybe, perhaps, help avoid
> > this last-minute rush.
> >=20
> > Now is now, though, and ordinary people are being made to
> > pay for govt decisions like they always have throughout
> > history. If we believe this serves some greater good, fine.
> > If not, I'm not sure what he sees as the alternative. Drag
> > the "transition" out forever? Or kill OTA outright? Or
> > just stay with NTSC and free up the DTT spectrum with
> > improved NTSC receivers? What are the alternatives he sees?
> >=20
> > Bert
> >=20
> > =3D20
> > =3D20
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>
> =20
> =20
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