I'm afraid my thread on Colorado would be too long. Suffice it to say, I
miss our gatherings after RMOUG in the mountains. I will always get a kick
out of Idaho Springs. And I loved the last lodge we stayed at in
Breckenridge the best. Mostly because of the walking trails and I could
keep a fire going the entire time.
Love hearing about all of your travels and somehow James, I missed your
move to Austin. Never been.
Carol
On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 7:22 PM Melanie Caffrey <melanie.caffrey@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
After reading this, my takeaway is that anyone who either follows, or even
thinks about, following someone around all day to ask such questions of
each person with whom the followed person interacts is actually allowing
the world to learn much more about him/herself, than they are about the
followed person.
On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 2:24 PM Mark W. Farnham <mwf@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Andy: Nail. Hit on head. +42.
An interesting side note is Farnham’s observation on Jacobs’ conjecture
(any way you slice society, each group will contain an equal proportion of
assholes), is that we tend to discount assholes from our own arbitrary
slice (we’re not like that) and over-notice assholes from slices to which
we do not belong. Ergo, the bumper stickers, because it really only takes a
few “ugly American” arrivals to forge an indelible impression.
Jacobs also provides us with an operational definition of an asshole: If
you could follow someone around all day and ask each person with whom they
interact: Do you feel better or worse, having had that interaction? THEN:
if more feel better than worse, not an asshole. Otherwise: Asshole.
In writing the asshole is bowdlerized to “inconvenient person.” I hope
that I am not one, but you really can’t tell by yourself.
Anyway, I really enjoyed your assessment. I have a sister-in-law in San
Marino and a daughter, son-in-law, and grandson in Echo Park. They are all
lovely persons.
mwf
*From:* oaktable-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
oaktable-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Andrew Zitelli
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 16, 2020 7:50 PM
*To:* oaktable@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Melanie Caffrey
*Subject:* [oaktable] Re: James started a trend ...
As a native Californian, born and raised in Palo Alto, this has been an
interesting thread. From Palo Alto I moved to Berkeley for college and
then fled the state for a few years. I returned in 1983 so I have lived
here a total of 60 years. Here is my two cents.
The population of California is not a uniform population of arrogant
jerks, it just has a disproportionately large number of them. There are
large differences in culture and attitude throughout various parts of the
state. The culture of the Bay Area is drastically different than Southern
California, the Central Valley, and the small towns in the far northern
part of the state. Although some in the Bay Area consider themselves
morally superior to those in Southern California, I actually prefer So.
Cal. Having lived in each for almost 30 years, I find people in the South
are less politically combative. I live on a block with Democrats,
Republicans, Libertarians, PETA members and NRA members. We disagree on
many things but we all get along, help each other and hang out together
with no hard feelings or animosity. This was the case in Palo Alto and
Berkeley in the 1960s, but is much less so today. I was recently
introduced to someone in Palo Alto as living in Orange County.
The response was "how can you live there, there are Republicans there." He
knew nothing about me. I concluded he was a moron.
What does all this mean? From my perspective, Californians moving to
other parts of the country are not equally dangerous. I suspect a family
moving from Bakersfield or Fresno would quickly blend into Idaho or
Colorado or New Mexico, without bringing along too many bad side effects.
On the other hand, if I lived in Texas or Oklahoma and someone moved in
next door from San Francisco or Los Gatos or Santa Monica I might be wary.
On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 3:58 PM Melanie Caffrey <
melanie.caffrey@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
31 years of living in CO for me. With my parents having lived in CO
since 1969. So, basically I have spent some amount of time in CO every
year, since 1969. :) (I am old.)
One of the most heartbreaking incidents for me was Amendment 2 being
passed (then thankfully overturned, albeit in a very publicly shameful way)
and having public figures make calls to "boycott Colorado". From 1992 to
1996, CO was labeled the "hate state". Sometimes it still is.
In the 70's and 80's, CO did not have a huge amount of big business or
big money. It was just a sleepy little state with some good ski resorts,
lots of crunchy granola peace-love-type people (like many people I know and
am related to :) ), and the occasional conservative group that didn't find
a huge legitimizing stronghold (even with the state's strong military
presence.) Lots of blue-collar industry. Tech was only just beginning to
spin up.
When James Dobson made his way into the city in which I grew up, my eyes
were completely opened to the fact that not everything California brought
to our state held the possibility of improvement. Scars like this have
healed slowly for many. And many left Colorado Springs and Colorado
because of it. :(
People joke (and I do, too) that Texans comprise quite a bit of tourism.
But, it's a long-standing joke. Colorado, as a whole, loves its tourism
dollar. Confrontations like the one Mark had are few and far between.
I've thankfully never seen or heard of that happening to anyone before.
The biggest complaint I ever heard from Coloradans about Californians was
"lack of manners". They said so about Texans as well, but Texans simply
brought a larger-than-life enthusiasm, in my experience. I found them warm
and sincere. I did not find that to always be the case about Californians
when I was growing up in CO.
The relationship between CA and CO has definitely been getting better in
recent years, however. Especially since, in this day and age, hardly
anyone is actually "from" any place, any more. :)
On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 3:57 PM Kellyn Pot'Vin-Gorman <
dbakevlar@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
After living for 35 years in Colorado, the most common complaint we had
about Californians in Colorado was McMansions and the "sea of roofs" in
Highlands Ranch and Parker. It seemed so miserable to live in a place with
a 5000 sq ft. house on a 3000 sq ft. lot or try to navigate the series of
bizarre, screwy roads and cul de sacs! It definitely kept me North of 88th
Ave, that's for sure... :)
My parents live in Medford, OR, just north of the California border. The
change to the orchards and agriculture that made Harry and David's famous
to one of vineyards by the 100's is a stark contrast vs. what they moved to
over 3 decades ago. The biggest challenge they face is folks coming up and
purchasing large ticket items as Oregon doesn't have sales tax. Although
Oregon and Washington have a friendlier connection, there are those that
complain that folks buy land in Washington to avoid the higher property
tax, but shop in Oregon for the same reason. :)
*Kellyn Pot'Vin-Gorman*
DBAKevlar Blog <http://dbakevlar.com>
about.me/dbakevlar
On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 11:34 AM Melanie Caffrey <
melanie.caffrey@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Welll, it really does depend on what one means by "ruining their way of
life."
To be fair, most Californians are simply living their lives and have
nothing to do with what other wealthy, powerful Californians are doing in
other states.
Many Coloradans take issue with hate legislation being attempted in their
state by powerful Californians who come in and have the means to do so.
The few making it difficult and giving the many a bad name, and all that.
I'm on the side of many Coloradans. I, personally, like hanging out with
many different types of people and don't want to see them threatened in any
way. Threatening people I care about can be categorized as "ruining my way
of life."
And if Oregonians happen to take similar issue with such legislation.
Why, then, I'm on their side, as well. (I'm not really sure what problems
Oregon has with California.)
On the other hand, I don't have a problem with raising taxes and creating
infrastructure.
On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 7:32 AM Kellyn Pot'Vin-Gorman <
dbakevlar@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In our travels for over two years in the RV, I noticed no matter what
state you were in, there was always an influx of people from another state
or area that long-time residents are sure are ruining their way of life.
The thing that got me about California is what you see on media covers so
little of the land that it encompasses. There are great little towns that
are significant for their agricultural contributions and such a wide
variety of eco-systems. I really do love our time there and the difference
in the lifestyle between living in Eureka vs. Palm Desert vs. Sacramento or
San Diego. I’m also perfectly happy skipping LA altogether, whenever
possible. :)
Tim and I will still be taking the RV down south for the winter when
we’re tired of the rain in January-April, so I’m glad for California just
south of us, even if the Californians keep moving up here and changing
Oregon. :)
Kellyn
On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 3:57 PM Melanie Caffrey <
melanie.caffrey@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
And oddly enough I am a California native, though I've spent most of my
life, cumulatively, living elsewhere. :)
Though if I do ever find myself living in CA again, I'll be doing so sans
bumper sticker. :)
Seriously, though, Austin is very cool. Congrats to you and yours!
On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 10:03 PM James Morle <james@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I consider myself a little over 10% Californian :)
On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 12:13 PM Melanie Caffrey <
melanie.caffrey@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I guess every state has its share of inconvenient persons.
Oh, most definitely. And though I don't condone what those passengers
did, I know it comes from a long storied history of feeling disrespected in
their own state.
I also generally don't like bumper stickers as they are mostly a form of
passive aggression.
Fun fact. The guy who made and distributed (or who is purported to have
done so) that "Native" bumper sticker that many Coloradans are proud to
sport on their vehicles, was born and raised in Utah.
On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 5:51 AM Mark W. Farnham <mwf@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
OK. True story. My first time visiting Colorado was for “Keystone I” the
first OAUG meeting managed by Meeting Expectations. (1991, late winter,
only the A basin was still open, thankfully not far uphill from Keystone.)
A car with flashing highbeams pulls even in the passing lane and we’re
getting the bird from all the passengers and they are screaming “Go back to
Texas!” We’re confused. I roll down the window. We’re from New Hampshire.
Why did you think we were from Texas? And why don’t you like Texans?
So they stop gesticulating and one says your license plate says Texas. Oh
– it’s a rental. He goes on Texans clog up our ski areas and buy drinks for
all the prettiest girls. Then they went faster.
Bumper sticker: “Don’t Californicate Colorado.” I met a lot of nice
people in Colorado. I guess every state has its share of inconvenient
persons.
mwf
*From:* oaktable-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
oaktable-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *John Beresniewicz
*Sent:* Saturday, December 12, 2020 12:07 PM
*To:* oaktable@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Cc:* douglas rady
*Subject:* [oaktable] Re: James started a trend ...
Back in the early 80’s I was in Seattle at the UW and already the phrase
“Don’t Californicate Washington” was circulating.
JB
On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 8:37 AM Tim Gorman <tim.evdbt@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Years ago, there was a saying in Colorado that "happiness was a Texan
heading south with a Californian under each arm".
Who would have thought that California would become the new New Jersey?
-Joisey boy
On 12/11/2020 6:42 PM, douglas rady wrote:
Yes, Oregon and Washington have suffered for years from fleeing
Californians who then (intentionally or not) attempt to replicate the same
circumstances that drove them out of CA to begin with.
On Friday, December 11, 2020, Mark W. Farnham <mwf@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
And his property value just jumped significantly. Congratulations, James.
Now the real challenge will be the very real threat of tax refugees from
California paradoxically wanting an income tax.
I have failed in many of my efforts to keep New Hampshire New Hampshire,
but so far our tax refugees from Massachusetts and New Jersey have not been
able to get past our constitution on that one. (We don’t have many New York
tax refugees; they tend to move to Burlington, VT. Probably they are
thinking: “That worked out nicely for Bernie.”)
Anyway Texas, en garde and good luck!
mwf
*From:* oaktable-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
oaktable-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *douglas rady
*Sent:* Friday, December 11, 2020 4:47 PM
*To:* oaktable@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [oaktable] James started a trend ...
ORCL moving HQ to AUS
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/oracle-is-moving-its-headquarters-from-silicon-valley-to-austin-texas.html
--
*Kellyn Pot'Vin-Gorman*
DBAKevlar Blog <http://dbakevlar.com>
about.me/dbakevlar
