[muglo] Re: 100% OT (was 90% OT (was: Re: What's with MacOutpost?)
- From: Eurogarth <eurogarth@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "Muglo@Freelists. Org" <muglo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:19:45 -0400
While I may prefer to have a private over public model, we do need to
separate the difference between what IS business and what IS Public Service.
Just b/c someone can create a profit, doesn't mean it SHOULD be a business
(Child porn comes to mind as an example) nor just b/c an elected party can
enter a market doesn't mean it SHOULD create a "Public Service (did I
really gain anything from PetroCanada?).
Most Canadians agree that Utility and Health-care services are "essential"
and should be state run... most Americans do not.
Should we privatize our Military? On education, in the US you can pay what
most of us believe are obscene amounts to go to a private school such as
Harvard, Stanford, Northwest, Yale Indiana, etc. or pay less than half to go
to a State College instead. Some state-schools (Michigan-State, Cal-State,
Florida-State among many others) have quality rivaling many private
schools. So it would seem that the US is split on if education should be
public or private. The problem for us is that IVEY, WLU, UofT could all
charge $100K each and still fill ALL the spots with Americans who'd happily
pay what looks to them like 65K with the added benefit of reduced living
expenses.
And that would be alright with some here who propose that private is always
better than public.
For me, I go by what I stated at the top and if we deem it "essential" then
is should be state run and if not, then it should be in the private sector.
And that my friends, must surely lead us to the the Insurance industry!
Where private would seem to be the way to go, but on the other hand, thanks
to Government intervention, having auto insurance IS more than essential,
it's mandatory. Believe it or not, there are still many places on this Earth
where insurance is not a legally mandated requirement, mostly in Asia. The
result there is that premiums are dirt cheap, payouts are tiny (no
multi-million-dollar verdicts in Hong Kong and repairs are based on the
cost of a fender rather than "well the insurance company is paying, so it
doesn't really matter". Yes, if you're hurt in an auto accident, you are
looked after as most of the places, like Canada, also have State run
health-care, but you won't be able to profit from it.
Garth.
All ranted out now... My apologies
> Eric Dunbar,
>
>> No, they'd just cover it up like tobacco or oil and continue to deny even 60
>> years later.
>>
>> Look at the shenanigans that ENRON pulled in California and caused massive
>> brown-outs - that was a 100% private company doing things and hiding behind
>> the guise of private enterprise. At least public enterprises are subject to
>> disclosure rules while there is no such requirement for private.
>
> Sure, but that doesn't necessarily include anybody wanting to study
> business. As a business student, I can personally say that was crap. Look
> what the scandals in the States have given us. Look what Bush has done.
> Only in America. What a joke. As a Canadian, anybody wishing against the
> US, I'd say to them "it's their 'leader', and not the average American.
> Americans are mostly good people not wanting problems domestically or
> internationally".
>
> How about this: Only under the governmental administration at the time,
> would they think they'd get away with that stuff. Again, it can be shown
> that the government could possibly allow such a thing, so they could get
> away with it.
>
>> Responsibility! I don't think so! Whenever you get ideology involved you
>> invariably get stupid behaviour -- Enron is a perfect example of why private
>> is not always best. Some things private does well (computers). Some things
>> should not be private -- water started private, then went public (clearing
>> up problems) and when the UK (and Ontario) privatised it they had *huge*
>> problems (Ontario stopped dead in its tracks b/c of the fiasco in the UK).
>> Rail started private, became public with few problems (other than cost),
>> then the UK went private (the ideology of Maggie Thatcher which the current
>> crop of idiot ideologues in Toronto seem to cling to, 10 years after its
>> demise) and had how many 1000s of deaths on its hands in short order due to
>> crumbling infrastructure and failure to invest profits in infrastructure?
>
> Only because they feel they have to conform to ideologies. I agree with you
> that ideologies should be abandoned. Enron was a mistake. Enron does not
> fully represent private enterprise. You know that. Governments around the
> world consistently show problems. When Ontario privatised hydro, it was the
> governmental arm that didn't know what it was doing. I know people in that
> industry and millions of dollars have been spent doing absolutely nothing.
> Those people are irresponsible, and they have no clue what they are doing.
> BTW, Canadian rail companies doing well, all things considered.
>
>> Private is *horrible* at building infrastructure. Look at the 407. Publicly
>> funded and then sold off privately, once the risk had been taken. If the
>> public takes a risk on something they should be the ones to derive 100% of
>> the benefits as well. Running the 407 could have been done privately but its
>> ownership should have stayed in public hands -- the public took the risk and
>> should have also reaped the rewards in terms of influx of tolls. What
>> happens in 10 to 20 years when the nfrasturcture ages. Unless the province
>> steps in they'll put off repairs until you end up with a 100 car pile-up and
>> hundreds or even thousands of road-condition related deaths.
>
> Don't you find your examples slightly ironic choices? 407 again, had a
> relationship with the government. Our leaders allowed a company to take
> this over privately if it was profitable, yet it supported them fully if it
> wasn't profitable. As for risk, that's another story altogether. I think
> perhaps the goals should be discussed before that issue can be dealt with.
>
> Predictions are useless. The highway will be serviced. It's part of
> ownership, like any other asset.
>
>> The ideology of private has a worse track record than public services in
>> many sectors. If you're willing to accept deaths for the sake of a few bucks
>> saved, then private is undoubtedly the way to go (Walkerton anyone :(
>
> Private has the balls to try something. Public has done very little right,
> and spent loads of our money doing it. Our kids are the worst they have
> ever been, healthcare has complaints every 20 feet, our water, our
> electricity, our transport...it just is a ZERO from the word GO.
>
> Walkerton was irresponsible, because they hire goofs to take care of them.
> Small town people cry foul at Toronto all the time, but they can't even
> manage their own infastructure because they're too busy tuning their Ski Do.
>
>>> like Walkerton, doesn't it. How many people died cause there was nobody
>>> really to answer and it was a shoe-in for a regional political job? That
>>> guy has no training whatsoever. That's government for ya, on every level.
>>
>> That's true. That's also business for you. Unless you can keep business on a
>> very short leash, unethical behaviour crops up there (WorldCom, ENRON, CIBC,
>> the big five music labels and price fixing all come to mind) and it
>> propagates fast since profit is one of the greatest motivators.
>
> I disagree. I'm an entrepreneur, and I get a kick out of finding market
> niches for making money. It's a game. It's a fun game. Doesn't mean I
> have to kill someone to have a cruise to Cuba. I want a family of my own,
> and I want them brought up in a decent society. I'm an amateur radio
> operator, and police infastructure with respect to communications, is
> terrible. We help out a lot.
>
> Granted, there are bad weeds, but that's what we discuss in class at the
> school. Ethics is a big part of business. My address to that, is "if
> people have to resort to bad behaviour, then they aren't very good at doing
> business to begin with."
>
> Music is in shambles because of other technologies catching up with them.
>
>
> --- Rich Fortnum / Viaduct Productions / London (EST)
> --- Interactive Web Design / Databases / Wireless Data
> --- http://www.viaduct-productions.com
>
>
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