Just sent this to debian-users, but worth considering discussions here progress....
----------- forwarded message ---------- <flame resistant underwear on> Scott Ferguson wrote:
It lost. Developers are not being forced to do what they don't want. The winner was "developers will work it out themselves" i.e. Debian won.
This whole bit about "developers are not being forced to do what they don't want" and "developers will work it out themselves" is starting to get on my nerves... 1. Debian "developers," for the most part, are not real developers in any imaginable sense of the word -- they're packagers, which bears precious little resemblance to software development. A few are serious integrators - worrying about the overall integrity of Debian as a system. A small few actually develop real code, unique to Debian - notably the installer and apt (one less with the departure of Joey Hess - a serious loss to the project). By and large, the real heavy lifting for any distro is done by "real developers" all those kernel and upstream folks that the Debian "Developers" package. 2. What "real developers" have to say: "Upstream software vendors are fully dependent on downstream distributions to package their stuff. It's the downstream distribution that decides on schedules, packaging details, and how to handle support. Often upstream vendors want much faster release cycles then the downstream distributions follow." (Lennart Poettering, http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html) "Chef to Debian: Please stop packaging us" ... "I don't care about distros" (http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/is-distributionlevel-package-management-obsolete) 3. And some good comments found while researching alternate packaging systems: http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?75466-Guix-A-New-Package-Manager-amp-GNU-Distribution/page2 Thread: Guix: A New Package Manager & GNU Distribution ... "This is a problem that should be solved by getting all the distro devs in a room and not letting them out until they find a proper solution to the problem." ... "You'd have better luck herding cats." ... "Cats are difficult felines sometimes, but they end learning how to live at the same place. Those developers are like doing the same to a bunch of religious fanaticals, they'll end killing each other. But distribution developers are full of massively developed egos, fanaticism and hidden commercial interests." --- "Although not half as much as distro *fans*...." <snip>
Please replace "we" with "I" - it gives the misleading impression you speak for the vast majority when you only speak for yourself. Note that opposition to *the choice* of using systemd 'probably' constitutes less than 1% of users. Noise, repitition, and FUD doesn't:- ;increase that percentage ;give you credibility ;justify your bullying and works against those that have genuine problems with systemd. The appropriate, polite way to deal with things you don't like - is speak *once* and state your case fully when you do. It's healthy to express concerns - it's unhealthy, to all, when you flood forums with them. The means justifies the ends - and bullying doesn't end well.
see above. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
