Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
- From: D!J!X! <megamansuperior@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 22:23:04 -0400
Oboy... Scary, first keyboards, now even pc OS's wanna go touch screen lol.
BTW,I saw a video on the sound module roland just released, the integra-7
rack... Have you seen/heard of it?
Regards,D!J!X!
-----Original Message-----
From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Vince Mistretta
Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 10:14 PM
To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
Oh yeah, I hope they do keep it too. Look at what Roland did on the
Jupiter80. I read it has a TS like Korgs.
On 9/22/12, D!J!X! <megamansuperior@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I hope they keep the psr interface, like the PSR2000, tyros and such.
> I saw the psr s900 at guitar center and saw it was still using the
> same method, a-j and page up/down buttons, so hope they keep that lol.
>
> D!J!X!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Steve Matzura
> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:27 PM
> To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>
> Wonder how accessible these will be.
>
> On Sat, 22 Sep 2012 17:57:57 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>I think the s750 will be around $1200 and the s950 is around $1900 but
>>don't quote me on it.
>>
>>They are apparently coming out now. One of the dealers on Synthzone
>>has received an s750 just this week.
>>
>>On 9/22/12, D!J!X! <megamansuperior@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> O nice! The 950? Any idea how much that'll be? I imagine the 1g
>>> price range that the upper mid range psr's have?
>>> Thanks for the info, looks like a few google moments are in store
>>> for when I get free time.
>>>
>>> THX, D!J!X!
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> On Behalf Of Vince Mistretta
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 1:05 PM
>>> To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>>>
>>> DJX ,
>>> Wait a few months. The new PSR S750 and S950 are just now coming out.
>>>
>>> For the Music Finder Viewer he used Quick Basic. He did some
>>> accessibility fixes on that product but I didn't work with him on
>>> the main screen where the lists of entries are. Have to Jaws cursor
>>> around on that one. Still needs a lot of work but it was helpful.
>>> I never tried any other software by him. Anyway, I don't have the
>>> need since I don't have a board which is addressed in his software.
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "D!J!X!" <megamansuperior@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:28 AM
>>> To: <MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>>>
>>>> Wow, Michael is still around! That's cool... Haven't spoken to him
>>>> in years.
>>>> Glad to hear he's still actively developing software for the
>>>> pssr/tyros line. When I get a s910 or whatever is out now I'll have
>>>> to
>>> hunt him down.
>>>> Vince, has he been able to get accessibility into his tools?
>>>> Back in the day we were working with java and some other sdk's that
>>>> made it a task to get things working, not to mention jaws was
>>>> behind the times (the days of 4.1/4.2).
>>>>
>>>> D!J!X!
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Vince Mistretta
>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 6:46 AM
>>>> To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All of that is only accessed through Sysex controls. If you
>>>> remember, back a few years ago on the T3 forum we had Michael
>>>> Bedison who is one of the biggest contributers on PSRTutorials come
>>>> on and answer many questions. I had asked him if he could modify
>>>> his Music Finder View application to take that information from a
>>>> selected song entry and send it to the T3. After a few months of
>>>> testing it was done. He said he had wanted to do it and was
>>>> getting held up with some area but found that those areas - tempo
>>>> especially was changed via PCCC00,c32 and PC controls. The styles,
>>>> variations, intros and all that other good stuff was only
>>>> addressable through Sysex.
>>>>
>>>> The feature is still available in the program to this date. There
>>>> is no documentation on this in any of the manuals for either the
>>>> Tyros line or PSR line. I'm thinking he was able to capture this
>>>> info through his MIDI out.
>>>> All the messages are standard over both series; just the id for
>>>> the board and model is different.
>>>>
>>>> I sold my T3 off about two months ago.
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Steve Matzura" <number6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 11:13 PM
>>>> To: <MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros - A Practical Example
>>>>
>>>>> My big complaint about the Tyros, and, I suspect, any arranger, is
>>>>> the lack of addressability via MIDI of certain features. I owned a
>>>>> T3 for about a year, and for the life of me, I could never figure
>>>>> out how to select styles or fills or breaks via MIDI. My goal in
>>>>> purchasing the thing was to do all that setup stuff with Sonar,
>>>>> record a song's backing track, then play over it with both hands.
>>>>> Ha, I remember as a kid I had this chord organ, and the first
>>>>> thing I learned to do with it was disable the chord functions so I
>>>>> could have a fuller keyboard and play my own chords! But what the
>>>>> Tyros offered in the way of arranger tools was so good, it drew me
>>>>> in, only to spit me out again when I found out I couldn't fire
>>>>> them via MIDI. If that capability exists there, I'd sure love to
>>>>> know how it's supposed to be
>>> done.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 07 Jul 2012 23:43:55 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Bryan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What a great explanation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So I had always figured my Tyros was a good choice for the
>>>>>>realistic instruments. And when I wanted to compose a song with
>>>>>>multiple tracks, instruments, and effects, then I figured Sonar
>>>>>>was my
> friend.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>However, I now appreciate the headwind in getting a DAW with Sonar
>>>>>>and all the supporting peripherals and wiring working.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Just understanding tracks, channels, busses, banks, patches,
>>>>>>sends, all that termonology and the routing is enough to drive any
>>>>>>newcomer crazy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I can appreciate that it's all pre-packaged in the Motif. But
>>>>>>still, Motif doesn't talk, so perhaps the memorization necessary
>>>>>>to master Motif's workstation features is roughly equivalent to
>>>>>>mastering playing Tyros + Sonar + Cake Talking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now if Motif talked, or we could link up Motif screens to an OCR
>>>>>>engine and have them spoken, that would be the ultimate, wouldn't it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks again for your detailed explanation,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ben
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>At 08:31 PM 7/7/2012, you wrote:
>>>>>>>OK. This can get complicated, but here is the nut shell.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>An arranger keyboard solves a problem for a few types of musicians.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If you gig by yourself, you have a virtual backup band that can
>>>>>>>play along with you. You select a musical style on the arranger,
>>>>>>>play the main keyboard part, and the band follows along. The
>>>>>>>instrument sounds on a good arranger keyboard are going to sound
>>>>>>>way better than some cheap general MIDI module or canned backing
>>>>>>>tracks. The keyboard also reacts to you, so if you stretch out
>>>>>>>with additional choruses, or if you want to throw in a break or
>>>>>>>solo, you can do that in
>>> the moment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The other big problem arrangers solve is they help someone that
>>>>>>>doesn't know how to play keyboard sound like a full band. I don't
>>>>>>>mean that the musician can't play keys, but playing keyboard is
>>>>>>>different from playing piano. Keyboard players learn how to
>>>>>>>spread out with wide two-handed chords to play more realistic
>>>>>>>guitar parts, how to play the correct intervals for instruments
>>>>>>>like harmonica, etc. If you play piano well, but don't know how
>>>>>>>to change your technique for those other instruments, then an
>>>>>>>arranger
> helps you.
>>>>>>>You basically play in the piano part, or else record in a few
>>>>>>>tracks that serve as guides, pick a style, and the arranger plays
>>>>>>>all of the other instruments for you. You can write this way, but
>>>>>>>you focus on the chords and melody, rather than playing each part.
>>>>>>>The styles are also useful for letting you hear how your chord
>>>>>>>progression and melody will sound when performed different ways.
>>>>>>>You focus on the big picture, and let the arranger worry about
>>>>>>>the
> details.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A workstation keyboard is meant to be a self-contained instrument
>>>>>>>for composition/production of an entire song. It is supposed to
>>>>>>>be something like a scaled down studio or DAW. Motif has lots of
>>>>>>>ready-to-go instrument sounds, both a 16 track linear (tape
>>>>>>>recorder style), and a 16 track pattern (drum machine style)
>>>>>>>sequencer, a sampler that can be used to import loops, make new
>>>>>>>instruments, record vocals, etc, and, finally, Motif has a
>>>>>>>mixing/mastering system for getting the sound right. You might
>>>>>>>have a megabucks computer with a mountain of softsynths, but a
>>>>>>>workstation is a boiled down version of that for getting the tech
>>>>>>>out of your way so you can write. You turn on the Motif, and it
>>>>>>>is all there: no updates, drivers, viruses, etc. You perform your
>>>>>>>parts in to the sequencer on the Motif, mix it on the Motif, and
>>>>>>>can record your file
>>> directly to a USB flash drive.
>>>>>>>The idea is that you sit down, turn on the Motif, quickly play in
>>>>>>>your idea, quickly mix it, and get up with a recorded song. The
>>>>>>>computer has more synths, more and better effects, etc etc. If
>>>>>>>you want to demo a song idea, though, you can throw something
>>>>>>>together in a short time on the Motif that sounds good, rather
>>>>>>>than spend hours working through the infinite possibilities on the
computer.
>>>>>>>If you end up loving your demo, you can jump on the computer with
>>>>>>>a better idea of where you're going.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A workstation is also different from an arranger in that it lets
>>>>>>>you control just about everything. You can record and edit on all
>>>>>>>16 tracks, instead of a few on an arranger. You have more
>>>>>>>performance controls that affect the tone of the instrument
>>>>>>>voice, where an arranger has mostly performance controls that
>>>>>>>affect the virtual band. You can also tweak the sound of any of
>>>>>>>your
>>>>>>> instruments:
>>>>>>>change the effects, edit the filters, envelopes, LFOs and other
>>>>>>>mod sources, all the way down to the individual samples, where an
>>>>>>>arranger doesn't go as deep with control of the instrument sounds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Arps or arpeggios get their name from history. On an instrument,
>>>>>>>you play an arpeggio by playing the notes of a chord individually
>>>>>>>in a pattern. In the ancient days, synthesizers had devices
>>>>>>>called arpeggiators that did this for you. You'd hold down a C
>>>>>>>major chord, and they'd play c, e, g, e, c, e, g, etc. You could
>>>>>>>change the pattern, so they'd play c, e, g, c, e, g, or g, e, c,
>>>>>>>g, e, c, but that was about it. On the Motif, an arpeggio is a
>>>>>>>bit like that in the sense that you can play a chord, but what
>>>>>>>comes out is a realistic sounding riff. For example, say you
>>>>>>>don't know how to play good guitar parts. You can pick a guitar
>>>>>>>sound for a track, select one of the guitar arpeggios, and just
>>>>>>>play the chords. The Motif will generate notes that sound like
>>>>>>>you're strumming, muting, tapping the guitar body for rhythm,
>>>>>>>etc. The arps on the Motif aren't as smart as the styles on the
>>>>>>>Tyros, but they try to help in the same way. You can also play
>>>>>>>them in to the sequencer one at a time, which gives you more
>>>>>>>control than you get on a Tyros. The Motif has a performance
>>>>>>>mode, where you can use up to 4 parts at once under arpeggiator
>>>>>>>control. People commonly make performances that include drums,
>>>>>>>bass, guitar, and keys. The result is something that sounds
>>>>>>>similar to a Tyros style, but with
> fewer parts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You can always hammer in a nail with a screw driver, but it isn't
>>>>>>>necessarily easy. That's why it's better to get the keyboard that
>>>>>>>is laid out to best handle the problems that you encounter the
>>>>>>>most in your work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bryan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Ben Humphreys wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks Bryan, I liked your summary: "The Tyros is a great
>>>>>>>>arranger with some workstation features. The Motif is a great
>>>>>>>>workstation with some arranger features."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Unfortunately, I don't yet have a grasp for what "arranger" and
>>>>>>>>"workstation" mean specifically. However, an example might help
>>>>>>>>clarify the situation for me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Let's say I have a 4-handed piano piece, such as "Heart and Soul."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I want to make a first pass with the left handed part, a
>>>>>>>>repeating pattern.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Then a second pass with the right handed part.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I understand how I might do this with Sonar, recording the left
>>>>>>>>hands part on a track, and then looping it over and over. Then
>>>>>>>>putting the right hands part on its own track.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>How might I accomplish this with Motif and/or Tyros?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Is this where arpeggios on Motif come in? Is this where styles
>>>>>>>>on Tyros come in?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Without regard to using Sonar, how would this be accomplished
>>>>>>>>on a Motif vs. Tyros?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Obviously, I'm confused about a lot of terms: workstation,
>>>>>>>>arranger, arpeggios, styles and how they might apply to various
>>>>>>>>situations, and in particular the one I have described.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'd be grateful to anyone who can set me straight :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Ben
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>At 04:07 PM 7/1/2012, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>There are a good many blind Tyros users out there. Most of
>>>>>>>>>these people are using the Tyros for doing one-man shows:
>>>>>>>>>weddings, small parties, etc. It is incredibly realistic at
>>>>>>>>>being a backing band while you play. The styles, harmonizer,
>>>>>>>>>and so forth aren't really useful if you're playing with a full
band.
>>>>>>>>>Ensemble keyboard players would do better with a workstation,
>>>>>>>>>where they can split/layer voices as much as they want, as well
>>>>>>>>>as build their own from scratch. I know a few blind people that
>>>>>>>>>have the Tyros as a studio sound module, but is very expensive
>>>>>>>>>for that
>>> approach.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The Tyros is a great arranger with some workstation features.
>>>>>>>>>The Motif is a great workstation with some arranger features.
>>>>>>>>>My personal opinion is that the Tyros is the superior live
>>>>>>>>>keyboard, and the Motif is the superior studio piece, but they
>>>>>>>>>both can do either things to some degree.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Anyway, there isn't a blind Tyros users list, as far as I know,
>>>>>>>>>but lots of them are on MIDI-Mag. At one point, there were
>>>>>>>>>panel descriptions, menu descriptions, and so on floating
>>>>>>>>>around for at least the Tyros 3.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I suggest to ask on MIDI-Mag. Go to
>>>>>>>>><<http://www.midimag.org>http://www.midimag.org>www.midimag.org.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Bryan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Jun 29, 2012, at 4:51 PM, D!J!X! wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>The motif is different in the layout and navigation than the
>>>>>>>>>>tyros and the top line psr. The tyros and psr are aranger
>>>>>>>>>>keyboards, with the styles and are geared more toward quick
>>>>>>>>>>composition and perfomance like that. You can use it with a
>>>>>>>>>>sequencer with no problem, and for quick recordings. Not sure
>>>>>>>>>>what it has in terms of sampling capabilities, but the motif
>>>>>>>>>>is more of a workstation, you can make more customized full
>>>>>>>>>>songs on there, they have pattern mode for quick loop based
>>>>>>>>>>music creation, and it's more of an overall perfoming
>>>>>>>>>>workstation, with separate channels and assignable parts and
>>>>>>>>>>such for performing, the tyros and psr just have the main
>>>>>>>>>>voice, 1 or 2 layers that you can add, and a left hand split
>>>>>>>>>>along with the
> styles.
>>>>>>>>>>The motif for example can have 4 separate keyboard zones or 4
>>>>>>>>>>layers (probably more in the xf and xs), you can use arps with
>>>>>>>>>>the voices (short musical loops), and you can even use the
>>>>>>>>>>pattern mode to create a 16 track part or such to use in
>>>>>>>>>>performances. It also has many more effects than the tyros and
>>>>>>>>>>more advanced routing, as it's meant for the studio musician
>>>>>>>>>>and the live gigging musician as well.
>>>>>>>>>>But if you're using the tyros in studio or for small
>>>>>>>>>>performances, the tyros should be fine, though because of it's
>>>>>>>>>>different layout and such it'll be harder to get help, since
>>>>>>>>>>most people on this list at least use the motif line. The good
>>>>>>>>>>thing about the tyros and psr navigation system is that it
>>>>>>>>>>stays constant and once you learn it you can get around most
>>>>>>>>>>of those
>>> keyboards.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>HTH, D!J!X!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>From:
>>>>>>>>>><<mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:moaccess-bounce@
>>>>>>>>>>f
>>>>>>>>>>re
>>>>>>>>>>e
>>>>>>>>>>lists.org><mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>moaccess-bounc
>>>>>>>>>>e
>>>>>>>>>>@f
>>>>>>>>>>r
>>>>>>>>>>eelists.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>[mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>>>>>>>On Behalf Of Ben Humphreys
>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 9:52 PM
>>>>>>>>>>To:
>>>>>>>>>><<mailto:MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>< ma i lto:MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: [MoAccess] Motif vs Tyros
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Hi folks,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I have a question relating to accessability of the Motif vs
>>>>>>>>>>the Tyros.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I've heard it consistently stated that Motif is one of the
>>>>>>>>>>best workstations for a blind musician, presumably because so
>>>>>>>>>>many functions are accessible from dedicated buttons and the
>>>>>>>>>>screen interface is button-based, not touch-based.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>However, when I went to purchase a Motif, I was so enamored
>>>>>>>>>>with the even more beautiful sounds of the Tyros that I ended
>>>>>>>>>>up getting a Tyros 4 instead.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I figured the Yamaha Tyros interface was similar enough to
>>>>>>>>>>Motif that I wouldn't be at any disadvantage to a Motif user.
>>>>>>>>>>Tyros has lots of buttons I can label in Braille, and screen
>>>>>>>>>>has 10 buttons, A through J, tab keys, and 1 through 8 up /
>>>>>>>>>>down buttons. I'm assuming Motif is very similar.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Of course, there is no ty-access mailing list, and certain
>>>>>>>>>>apps, such as those from John Melas, won't work with Tyros.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>But I'm using Sonar with Cake Talking, same as I would with Motif.
>>>>>>>>>>And I've found a Tyros 4 Instrument Definition File so
>>>>>>>>>>presumably can select instruments easily using Sonar.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Which leads to my question:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Is the Motif preferred among the blind community over the
>>>>>>>>>>Tyros primarily because the Motif is somehow more accessable?
>>>>>>>>>>Or is it perhaps that the Tyros is a bit on the expensive side?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Is there some compelling reason I'd want to sell my Tyros and
>>>>>>>>>>get a Motif instead?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Thanks for your help,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Ben
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>--
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>>>>>>>>>>r
>>>>>>>>>>g/
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>>>>>>>>>>ist/moaccess
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>li
>>>>>>>>s
>>>>>>>>t/moaccess
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>>
>>
>>--
>>Vince Mistretta
>>Call me at 561-234-7631
>>Skype Name: vin5451
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Call me at 561-234-7631
Skype Name: vin5451
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