[macvoiceover] Re: is a paid screenreader for the mac a option?
- From: Judy Wilkinson <jwilkins@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 14:19:41 -0700
What on earth does this subject line have to do with these posts!
On Jun 25, 2012, at 10:01 PM, Carol Pearson wrote:
> What do you mean, that you can't configure Dropbox? Please explain as I
> currently use this a lot!
>
> Carol P
> ---- Original Message ----
> From: Ronald Johnson
> To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 11:45 PM
> Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: is a paid screenreader for the
> mac a option?
>
> > Hi list!
> >
> >
> > It's been quite a while since I last posted, but I just
> > felt compelled to offer my two cent's worth to this
> > discussion.
> >
> >
> > First off, let me say that, in point of fact, we do have
> > a pay-for screen reader in the form of VoiceOver. If you
> > think about it, in the past, when we shelled out our
> > $129.99 for Tiger and Leopard, then, more recently, our
> > $29.99 for Snow Leopard and Lion, we were, in fact,
> > paying for VoiceOver - just not shelling out between $600
> > and $1200 for a add-on program complete with registration
> > keys, authorizations, etc. The difference here is that
> > the entire Mac user community of several million, helps
> > Apple fund R&D for VoiceOver with every copy of OS X they
> > purchase. Since VO is integrated, yet purely optional,
> > no sighted person ever need know, or care, that it's
> > there, until they have need for it, as it's not something
> > which is in their way, in their face, etc.
> >
> >
> > Secondly, while it's true there are more accessible apps
> > on the Windows platform, than on the Mac, this only
> > stands to reason as JFW's been around now for what, about
> > 20 years, give or take? How long has VO been around -
> > about 7 years? 8, if you count the Spoken Interface
> > Preview project. Quite frankly, since Tiger was released
> > on April 29th, 2005, I've been pleasantly surprised at
> > the number of partially-accessible, to fully-accessible
> > apps which have become available for the Mac. I've not
> > found much I can't do with my Mac, aside from configuring
> > Dropbox, and the occasional thing like that. Remember,
> > JFW, Window Eyes, et al, cater to the app, while
> > VoiceOver puts the burden on the developer to make their
> > apps accessible. Also, pretty much everything in Apple's
> > lineup is accessible. Can any other companies say that
> > with a straight face?
> >
> >
> > Thirdly, if memory serves me correctly, VoiceOver has
> > been able to be controlled via Applescript, since Snow
> > Leopard, for sure. I do recall that there is a member of
> > this list who was working on a system which combined
> > Applescript, VO, and an App, called "KwikKeys", to make
> > apps more accessible. In other words, VO is scriptable,
> > in it's own way, same as JFW and Window-Eyes. Perhaps
> > people should look to this capability, before rushing to
> > the conclusion that we need a "Pay-for" screen reader?
> > Seems to me we've been given many marvelous tools by
> > Apple to make using a Mac easier and more rewarding.
> > Guys like you, William, can learn everything you can
> > about VO and how to make efficient use of it, learn
> > applescript, and design a suite of VO scripts which would
> > make some apps more VO-friendly than they currently are.
> > You could even sell your suite of scripts on the app
> > store? Just a thought…
> >
> >
> > Finally, might a "Pay-for" screen reader be beneficial?
> > Perhaps, as it'd give Apple competition inside the Mac
> > community. Should it happen? Probably not. Seems to me
> > the best way to get more VO-accessible apps is to provide
> > developers with incentives for doing so. If that means
> > Apple, or some other authoritative organization handing
> > out a meaningful award, once a year, for the most
> > VO-accessible app, then so be it. If it means paying a
> > little bit more for the apps then, instead of grumbling
> > about the cost, we should pay it. If it means bombarding
> > developers with kind, well-thought-out eMails about
> > accessibility of their apps, or lack thereof, again, so
> > be it. Point is, the developer community has to have a
> > valid, viable reason for putting in the extra time and
> > effort to make things accessible and we, the members of
> > the VoiceOver community, can be instruments for changing
> > that.
> >
> >
> > Lastly, I do agree that training would be a huge help. I
> > suspect most of us just "wing it" - I know I sure do! LOL
> > I know, good training can be hard to come by, can cost
> > bookoo bucks, or may not even be available in more
> > remote, rural areas. That being said, knowing how to
> > properly use a tool definitely makes using it much
> > easier, enjoyable, efficient, etc. Also, before I forget
> > - the suggestion about writing to accessibility@xxxxxxxxx
> > - an excellent idea! They do respond, and the issues
> > usually get resolved, if not immediately, within the next
> > few releases of the OS.
> >
> >
> > Well, that's pretty much what I've got to say on the
> > subject. I hope I've made some valid points, offered
> > valuable insights and given folks a few things to "chew
> > on" as it were?
> >
> >
> > Take care,
> >
> >
> > Ron J.
> >
> >
> > Ron J. | AKA Ganahee
> >
> > Messenger Services:
> >
> > AIM: Ganahee
> > MSN: Ganahee@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > Yahoo!: Ganahee
> > Skype: Ganahee
> >
> > Alternate Contact:
> >
> > E-Mail: Ganahee@xxxxxxxxx
> > Home: 605-759-0694
> > Cell: 605-759-0694
> >
> > "For millions of years, mankind lived, just like the
> > animals. Then something happened, which unleashed the
> > power of our imagination - we learned to talk."
> >
> > From the MD "The Division Bell", the track "Keep Talking".
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jun 25, 2012, at 3:32 PM, John Panarese wrote:
> >
> >
> > For word processing, there are a few. There is Bean,
> > iText Express and Nisus Writer Express, that come to
> > mind. There is also the Open Office suite. The
> > spreadsheet part of Open Office is pretty good, or was in
> > the last version I've seen. There is also Tables as a
> > spreadsheet application.
> >
> >
> > Take Care
> >
> > John Panarese
> > jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jun 25, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Ian Edwards
> > <ianedwards42@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >
> > John, I deleted the message regarding alternatives to
> > iWork Pages. Can you give a heads-up as to what you find
> > to be a good solution for word processing? I've got a
> > pretty good handle on Text Edit, anything else out there?
> >
> >
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> >
> >
> > Ian
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2012-06-25, at 2:14 PM, rhonda cruz wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > hello John, and all.
> >
> >
> >
> > I feel that john. is a wonderful teacher.
> >
> > and i am going to get some help from him.
> >
> > some day.
> >
> >
> >
> > keep up the great work.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jun 25, 2012, at 12:16 PM, John Panarese wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > That's why I offered alternatives to iWorks. I am not
> > disagreeing with some of his points. I am disagreeing
> > with his conclusions and inferences.
> >
> >
> >
> > Let's not forget that Mountain Lion is coming soon.
> > Let's wait to see what improvements will be found for
> > VoiceOver. Also, as I indicated, strong rumors point to
> > an update to iWorks.
> >
> >
> >
> > Take Care
> >
> >
> >
> > John Panarese
> >
> > jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jun 25, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Laura <laura.mcg@xxxxxxxxx>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Out of interest, what in the original message is
> > preventable with training? I disagree with the paid
> > alternative to VoiceOver, but aren't most of the points
> > William raises valid? Tables in Pages are often
> > difficult, and, at the moment, getting to third party
> > status bar items is complicated. Pages in general seems
> > to me to have some reasonably big accessibility
> > bugs--I.E. the inability to read track changes or
> > comments.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not picking an argument, honestly. I'm just curious,
> > because the only part of the message I'd question is the
> > part about not being able to search for form fields in
> > tables on webpages. If there are straightforward methods
> > for achieving some of the other things he finds
> > difficult, I'd love to hear about them, too.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> >
> >
> > Laura
> >
> >
> >
> > On 25 Jun 2012, at 19:00, VaShaun Jones wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I really think you need proper training because the
> > statements you are making just are not true. As I've
> > stated before there are blind people who work on
> > accessibility for the Mac day in and day out and I
> > promise you with all my heart proper training prevents
> > piss poor performance and this is surely a matter of not
> > having the proper training. I will leave this alone
> > because a person convinced against their will is of the
> > same opinion still.
> >
> > On Jun 25, 2012, at 8:08 AM, William Windels
> > <william.windels@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > After working for more than 3 years with the mac , it's
> > my personal opinionthat more basic programs are
> > accessible on windows then on the mac platform.
> >
> >
> >
> > I find it more stable to work on the mac because of the
> > integration of the screenreader voiceover with the osx.
> >
> > The fact that the hardware is also adapted for us by the
> > trackpad and the function-keys with the spoken values.
> >
> > And of course the flexible way we can install , manage
> > the system with voiceover support everywhere.
> >
> >
> >
> > However, we can't e.g. configure dropbox with voiceover
> > while this is possible on windows, office programs like
> > microsoft office and also iWork's aren't fully accessible
> > with lay-out tasks, in my opinion there are several
> > usability issues with the browsers on the mac, some
> > ellements of the os , like
> >
> > Tables, on websites and on numbers and pages, are very
> > difficult to navigate e.g. you can't search for
> > edit-fields on websites while they are in a table and in
> > pages, you can't work with tables on a comfortable way.
> >
> > the icon's on the status bar, can't be reached on a
> > normal way with voiceover...
> >
> >
> >
> > My conclusion: a paid screenreader for the mac that makes
> > program's accessible with scripts (like screen readers on
> > windows do), should be very welcome I think.
> >
> > With this kind of optional screenreader, blind users
> > should be able to use all the equivalents on the mac of
> > their windows favorites. Perhaps it should push apple
> > to make their screenreader better on a faster speed.
> >
> >
> >
> > Why such screenreader doesn't exist yet?
> >
> > I see 2 reasons for this:
> >
> > 1. Apple should not be happy with this and the
> > screenreader of apple should have more possibilities to
> > integrate with the os then the external screenreader.
> >
> > 2. Other communities don't see a reason to make a
> > screenreader for the mac while there is one built in.
> >
> > If it should be the second reason, any people with
> > accessibility frustrations on the mac , should
> > communicate this to other companies like gw micro,
> > freedom scientific, baum...
> >
> >
> >
> > Any opinions about this meanings should be very welcome.
> >
> > kind regards,
> >
> > William Windels>
> >
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> >
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