[macvoiceover] Re: is a paid screenreader for the mac a option?
- From: Ian Edwards <ianedwards42@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 11:53:33 -0600
Same thing with the names table in address book. So if you start to geta sense
of which things behave in what way, you know you can do the same action or
behaviour across the board.
Cheers,
Ian
On 2012-06-26, at 10:53 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Its true. But on the other hand, I often find that people will interact when
> its totally unnecessary. Especially those new to the Mac. For example,
> someone told me that they hated using iTunes because they had to interact too
> much. I replied, show me how you use iTunes. First, they VO right arrowed
> like 6 times until they got to the sources table when they could have press
> VO command T and jumped right to it. Then, they interacted with sources to
> navigate to the music playlist. I said, you know you don't have to interact
> with the sources table to do that? They didn't believe me so, I said, stop
> interacting, and just press the letter M. It brought them directly to the
> music playlist. Same thing with the songs table. Who ever instructed them,
> said they need to interact in order to navigate and play music. This is
> totally false.
>
> My point is, the concept of interacting is a tough nut to crack at first.
> Some just interact with everything, giving themselves a type of sensory
> overload. lol.
>
> Ricardo Walker
> ricardo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Twitter:@apple2thecore
> www.appletothecore.info
>
> On Jun 26, 2012, at 12:10 PM, Ian Edwards <ianedwards42@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> I echo the importance of interacting. It's something I had no concept of
>> before Mac, as it's not referred to in casual conversation with sighted Mac
>> users. I think it's much more intuitive to a sighted person. Knowing that
>> the thing you're working on, say a document, may sound the same under
>> voiceover when you're interacting and when you're not, and that you can be
>> taken out of interacting without you're doing it, and that voiceover
>> commands do different things when you're not interacting was an important
>> lesson to learn.
>>
>> It sounds scarier than it is. It really means forming the habit of
>> interacting each time you come back to a document body. It has started to
>> become second-nature.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> On 2012-06-26, at 12:21 AM, David Chittenden wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> As far as I am concerned, 2 and 3 are yes. I use the trackpad and trackpad
>>> commander all the time on my MacBook Air. I am tired of learning esoteric
>>> keyboard commands, so I prefer learning touchpad gestures whenever
>>> possible. Besides, we continue moving away from full keyboards.
>>>
>>> One of the best pieces of advice I received whilst transitioning was to
>>> understand interacting. Each time you interact, you tighten your focus or
>>> view in to a specific area or section. You can interact multiple times,
>>> taking you deeper in to layers, so it is not the same as forms mode.
>>>
>>> Next is developing basic understanding around control, option, and command.
>>> They do not translate straight across from windows. Command is basically
>>> commanding the computer. Control, I believe, is more about modifying
>>> behaviors. I do not currently remember for option because I seldom use
>>> option-based commands.
>>> Finally, VO (control and option keys pressed together), the VO command
>>> signifier (same as insert or caps lock for Jaws and System Access), along
>>> with k, puts you in to keyboard help. This mode announces the functions of
>>> keys and VO key combinations. VO h h (hold down VO and press h twice),
>>> places you in to the lists of VO commands. I wish there was a similar list
>>> for standard Mac commands.
>>>
>>>
>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>> Email: dchittenden@xxxxxxxxx
>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 26/06/2012, at 16:55, "Carol Pearson" <carol.pearson29@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John, thanks so much for this. It's given me such an insight into Mac's
>>>> capabilities and, to be honest, I'm currently rather mind boggled but
>>>> greatly excited!
>>>>
>>>> I realise now that I need to prepare for going to the MAC store in order
>>>> that I can fully use my time/visits there in the best way possible.
>>>>
>>>> Forgive some of the elementary questions in preparation for this phase:
>>>>
>>>> 1) I know how to turn VO on but what else do I really need to get to
>>>> grips with as far as VoiceOver is concerned?
>>>>
>>>> 2) Is a track pad or mouse going to be useful to me?
>>>>
>>>> 3) Will Apple Care enable me to be fully supported by an Apple rep from
>>>> my home? (I mean, could a rep take control of my Mac to perform any
>>>> required tasks I have not mastered?)
>>>>
>>>> 4) I'd like to be made aware of any shortcomings (making work
>>>> difficult) in VoiceOver, as it is at present. I would need to get to
>>>> grips with spread sheets and convert some from Windows quite quickly. Is
>>>> this going to be difficult for me?
>>>>
>>>> 5) Finally, Am I safe to purchase any air printer now (as I need a new
>>>> one quite urgently) and expect it to work with the Mac, or should I be
>>>> looking for a list of recommended printers?
>>>>
>>>> I do hope you all don't mind these questions. Please feel free to take
>>>> them off list with me if you wish.
>>>>
>>>> Carol P - Thanking you all for support in my journey!
>>>>
>>>> ---- Original Message ----
>>>> From: "John Panarese" <jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 10:28 PM
>>>> Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: is a paid screenreader for the
>>>> mac a option?
>>>>
>>>>> Keith posted this link a few weeks ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.apple.com/osx/whats-new/features.html
>>>>>
>>>>> The release date is not been announced, though July
>>>>> is said to be the month. I read somewhere July 18, but
>>>>> this is NOT confirmed and rumor only.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>
>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>> Director
>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>
>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX LION
>>>>>
>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>
>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 5:01 PM, "Carol Pearson"
>>>>> <carol.pearson29@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Any ideas when Mountain Lion should arrive and does
>>>>>> anyone have direct URLs for good reading about him!
>>>>>> <Smiles>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Carol P
>>>>>> ---- Original Message ----
>>>>>> From: "John Panarese" <jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 8:16 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: is a paid screenreader for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> mac a option?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's why I offered alternatives to iWorks. I am
>>>>>>> not disagreeing with some of his points. I am
>>>>>>> disagreeing with his conclusions and inferences.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's not forget that Mountain Lion is coming soon.
>>>>>>> Let's wait to see what improvements will be found for
>>>>>>> VoiceOver. Also, as I indicated, strong rumors point
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> an update to iWorks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Panarese
>>>>>>> jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Laura
>>>>>>> <laura.mcg@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Out of interest, what in the original message is
>>>>>>>> preventable with training? I disagree with the paid
>>>>>>>> alternative to VoiceOver, but aren't most of the
>>>>>>>> points William raises valid? Tables in Pages are
>>>>>>>> often difficult, and, at the moment, getting to
>>>>>>>> third party status bar items is complicated. Pages
>>>>>>>> in general seems to me to have some reasonably big
>>>>>>>> accessibility bugs--I.E. the inability to read track
>>>>>>>> changes or comments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not picking an argument, honestly. I'm just
>>>>>>>> curious, because the only part of the message I'd
>>>>>>>> question is the part about not being able to search
>>>>>>>> for form fields in tables on webpages. If there are
>>>>>>>> straightforward methods for achieving some of the
>>>>>>>> other things he finds difficult, I'd love to hear
>>>>>>>> about them, too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 25 Jun 2012, at 19:00, VaShaun Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I really think you need proper training because the
>>>>>>>>> statements you are making just are not true. As I've
>>>>>>>>> stated before there are blind people who work on
>>>>>>>>> accessibility for the Mac day in and day out and I
>>>>>>>>> promise you with all my heart proper training
>>>>>>>>> prevents piss poor performance and this is surely a
>>>>>>>>> matter of not having the proper training. I will
>>>>>>>>> leave this alone because a person convinced against
>>>>>>>>> their will is of the same opinion still. On Jun 25,
>>>>>>>>> 2012, at 8:08 AM, William Windels
>>>>>>>>> <william.windels@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>> After working for more than 3 years with the mac ,
>>>>>>>>>> it's my personal opinionthat more basic programs
>>>>>>>>>> are accessible on windows then on the mac platform.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I find it more stable to work on the mac because of
>>>>>>>>>> the integration of the screenreader voiceover with
>>>>>>>>>> the osx.
>>>>>>>>>> The fact that the hardware is also adapted for us
>>>>>>>>>> by the trackpad and the function-keys with the
>>>>>>>>>> spoken values.
>>>>>>>>>> And of course the flexible way we can install ,
>>>>>>>>>> manage the system with voiceover support
>>>>>>>>>> everywhere.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, we can't e.g. configure dropbox with
>>>>>>>>>> voiceover while this is possible on windows, office
>>>>>>>>>> programs like microsoft office and also iWork's
>>>>>>>>>> aren't fully accessible with lay-out tasks, in my
>>>>>>>>>> opinion there are several usability issues with the
>>>>>>>>>> browsers on the mac, some ellements of the os ,
>>>>>>>>>> like Tables, on websites and on numbers and pages,
>>>>>>>>>> are very difficult to navigate e.g. you can't
>>>>>>>>>> search for edit-fields on websites while they are
>>>>>>>>>> in a table and in pages, you can't work with
>>>>>>>>>> tables on a comfortable way.
>>>>>>>>>> the icon's on the status bar, can't be reached on a
>>>>>>>>>> normal way with voiceover...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My conclusion: a paid screenreader for the mac that
>>>>>>>>>> makes program's accessible with scripts (like
>>>>>>>>>> screen readers on windows do), should be very
>>>>>>>>>> welcome I think.
>>>>>>>>>> With this kind of optional screenreader, blind
>>>>>>>>>> users should be able to use all the equivalents on
>>>>>>>>>> the mac of their windows favorites. Perhaps it
>>>>>>>>>> should push apple to make their screenreader
>>>>>>>>>> better on a faster speed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why such screenreader doesn't exist yet?
>>>>>>>>>> I see 2 reasons for this:
>>>>>>>>>> 1. Apple should not be happy with this and the
>>>>>>>>>> screenreader of apple should have more
>>>>>>>>>> possibilities to integrate with the os then the
>>>>>>>>>> external screenreader.
>>>>>>>>>> 2. Other communities don't see a reason to make a
>>>>>>>>>> screenreader for the mac while there is one built
>>>>>>>>>> in. If it should be the second reason, any people
>>>>>>>>>> with accessibility frustrations on the mac , should
>>>>>>>>>> communicate this to other companies like gw micro,
>>>>>>>>>> freedom scientific, baum...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Any opinions about this meanings should be very
>>>>>>>>>> welcome.
>>>>>>>>>> kind regards,
>>>>>>>>>> William Windels>
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