Hi EveryoneSorry, just getting involved in this thread here but looking through it I found something I have to put my $0.02 in for. This is just my experience, having taught people to use both platforms. Yes, the Windows interface is relatively easy... but what I've found is that that so-called simplicity gets undermined by many things, the screen reader not least of all. I've taught people windows, and what inevitably happens is that they come across something they can't do with the keyboard and need to use the mouse pointer, or jaws cursor, or whatever the screen reader in question has for mouse manipulation. So I then teach them the basics of this type of navigation as well. Then they want to go on the internet, and there's yet another set of commands to learn. By this time either they've gotten fully into it or are overwhelmed. Mastering just those concepts can take weeks for some. And don't even go into the realm of application-specific commands and/or scripts. Personally, I think it's insane. I can contrast that vividly with the Mac's approach. The concepts are different to windows, in some cases radically so. But you learn one set of concepts, and they apply to everything--navigation, editing, web browsing, etc. If you know how to navigate the operating system, you know how to navigate the web, and whatever other applications you're using. A simple, basic set of concepts is all one needs to get going, whatever their background. In the long term, I believe it tends to decrease rather than increase the complexity of using a screen reader. For those who've been using nothing but Windows, I agree it may be daunting at first. As has been said often about learning the Mac, forget jaws, forget windows. If you expect the Mac and Windows to work the same, you're just going to be frustrated, and you'll pass that frustration along to others if they ask for your opinion. Everyone has different tastes and opinions, and if someone genuinely wants to use Windows and likes it better then the Mac, that's their choice. But I hope that is an informed choice and not one made out of frustration or a lack of understanding.
Just my $0.02 worth in this, I'll shut up now :). On Apr 22, 2008, at 5:39 AM, David Poehlman wrote:
Apparently you do unless you are hiding something because what you aresaying about the os is simply not true especially for someone with your background and what you say is dangerous because even though you say it is your take etc etc etc, some will take it as gospel so you should endeavor tomaster it and then report. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Truong" <bnfiles@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:36 AMSubject: [macvoiceover] Re: Thanks all, got it working was: Really need helpwith VMWare Fusion and Windows on a Mac Mini. HI Dave, I don't need to finish studying the mac to know that it isn't for me. -----Original Message----- From: macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Poehlman Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 10:18 PM To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxxSubject: [macvoiceover] Re: Thanks all, got it working was: Really need helpwith VMWare Fusion and Windows on a Mac Mini. David,You said yourself you have limitted experience with osx. You cannot say then having not finished your *training* that windows is easier even for youbecause you have not given it a proper chance. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Truong" <bnfiles@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:09 AMSubject: [macvoiceover] Re: Thanks all, got it working was: Really need helpwith VMWare Fusion and Windows on a Mac Mini. Hi Mate,Fair enough and I'm truly sorry for looking on the Mac that way. But ifwhat you say is true, and there isn't any reason I can think of why it wouldn't be then no doubt I'll be converted sooner than later smile.I know what you mean about reliability and hence why I'm trying this mac mini. But I just love the windows interface reliable or not. It is so easyto use and even better so easy to teach non-computing people. Put thereliable factor into it by putting it on reliable hardware and that'll do me. I don't really buy into that other stuff you talk about. Don't get me wrong, I am not disagreeing with you, just telling you how it is for me andif that makes me an outcast then so be it smile. But I trust the Maccommunity aren't like the Unix community who tend to shun those who have adifferent point of view or outlook to them smile. David Truong EMail and Messenger: davidtruong@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Skype: blindboxer1967 -----Original Message----- From: macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Lewis Brock Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 9:40 PM To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxxSubject: [macvoiceover] Re: Thanks all, got it working was: Really need helpwith VMWare Fusion and Windows on a Mac Mini. its a bit of a shame to look on the mac in that way. when you invest in apple hardware, you get security, stability, raw power, an operating system that delivers much more than any other OSon the market could ever do, the best technical support, a cover plan you can rely on and so much more. using a macintosh really changes the way that people think of computing. none of the stress of windows hell, stupid driver issues etc. just a pure solid structure. not just that but bloomin good design. you take on a mac for its raw potential. not to just float windows on it and not even bother using the OS X system. really spend time to think of what you are going to do with the mac, find solutions rather than sitting on your hands doing nothing. the mac is a new way of life and not a windows case decorated by an apple badge. lew On 22 Apr 2008, at 12:33, David Poehlman wrote:well, you are missing huge advantages but that is your choice. I didn't migrate to mac os due to an ego. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Truong" <bnfiles@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 6:26 AM Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: Thanks all, got it working was: Really need help with VMWare Fusion and Windows on a Mac Mini. HI Mate, Fair enough too. If you love the Mac then that's great. My reason for using the Mac is simple. I've heard and believe that the Mac operating system and its associated hardware is very reliable. That is the Windows weak point no doubt about that. I don't believe any of the other bS being said about windows as it has been great to me except for its unreliability. So I figured get my favourite operating system interface wise along with all of my favourite programs and put it on a reliable platform as well as on a really small pc = Mac Mini. NO point relearning new programs just to boosts ones ego. I use computers for what it can do for me and I don't see the Mac offering me anything else more apart from reliability. David Truong EMail and Messenger: davidtruong@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Skype: blindboxer1967 -----Original Message----- From: macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith Reedy Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 3:27 PM To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: Thanks all, got it working was: Really need help with VMWare Fusion and Windows on a Mac Mini. Hi Sara, I am sure that some folks need to run Windows for one reason oranother. Maybe they have expensive programs that they use for work orsomething like that. However, as for me, I run a MAC because of its ease of use, it does everything I need in my office and because, it just works. Up until 3 years ago I had been a windows user. I had used JFW and Window-eyes and before that DOS, but I had never foundanything that has maid me more productive than the MAC. The Voiceoverscreen reader is very nice, very quick, responsive and a pleasure touse, but the real pluss for me is the MAC platform. Keyboard commandsfor the most part are the same from program to program, it does not have the history of crashing as with other platforms, the updates are really helpful and I can't think of anything that I did with windows that I can not do easier and faster with the MAC. In short, it just works.The screenreader on the MAC is not loaded on just a few thousand MACS,but, millions of MACS. I can walk in to a growing number of public places, press command-f5 on a MAC and go to work. The thing I try to make important to wood-be MAC users is in order to use the MAC affectively, is to remember that the MAC platform is a different platform, a simpler platform a more user friendly platform.To those of you who are using Windows on the MAC, please take the timeto learn the MAC. Your life will change for the better and you will be glad that it did. Keith Reedy On Apr 21, 2008, at 11:51 PM, Sara wrote:I've been following this discussion and am glad you got it working. I don't know how to do that so I couldn't offer advice but it's interesting to me that people run Windows on a Mac. I never thought about the machine being nice and small and the hardware being really good and that was why people wanted to put Windows on it. I had always assumed people bought Macs to escape from Windows but I guess that is not always true. I don't really understand this virtual stuff. Is Windows really there? smile Just kidding, I guess it is there, but being run by another program or something? Please keep the interesting topics coming! Sara ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Truong"<bnfiles@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxTo: <macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:22 PM Subject: [macvoiceover] Thanks all, got it working was: Really need help with VMWare Fusion and Windows on a Mac Mini.HI Cheryl, Well, after reading your message and taking a lot of your advice, I have the VMWare playing ball and now have windows on my Mac Mini. Thank Christ is all I can say. I really appreciated those suggestions you gave me to check on especially regarding how long the installation of windows can take. It took an hour and a bit for mine. Also, I did as you suggested, as soon as I was sure Windows had installed, I did the command+g and then typed in my password. However, I sort've did it in blind faith as I wasn't given any feedback whether I was on the right field or not but never mind it worked. I knew though that you had succeeded so I thought it should be right and it was. I managed to get narrator going and Now it's working great. I have my screen reader on there and have windows configured to how I like it. Just about to install some programs on it. You know I am so happy now that I can use windows on such a small machine and I know the apple hardware is great even if the os isn't my cup of tea. So thanks to you and all of you who helped in getting me the best of both worlds smile. David Truong EMail and Messenger: davidtruong@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Skype: blindboxer1967 -----Original Message----- From: macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:macvoiceover-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Cheryl Homiak Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 10:31 AM To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: Really need help with VMWare Fusion and Windows on a Mac Mini. Ok, here are things to check. First of all, my installation has been known to take longer than half an hour; I'd leave it for an hour to be safe. Second, you don't say whether you logged in with your password before trying to install vmware tools. What I do is leave the cd in when I think it's done and do cmd-g to direct input inside the virtual machine and type my password and hit enter. If it's installed and your sound is working, you should hear the xp startup music. then I go into the menus and do "install vmware tools" or "up[date vmware tools" whichever it says. You'll get a dialog to confirm you want to do that and later if you go back that same menu item says "cancel vmware tols installation" but it never changes. Just leave it for a few minutes and then restart with cmd-u r (cmd is the windows key). Third, before trying to get narrator up or even before trying to type your password and start, did you use vokeys and check whether sound is connected and whether whatever speakers you are using are connected? Sorry, I'm not getting this in order, but I thought the virtual machine could only do 20GB; your post says you are changing it to 100gb. Also, how much memory do you have; do you have a gb of memory to give and still have enough for macosx.Those are the things I can think of offhand. Also, Narrator has thisannoying dialog the first time it starts up so if you have a talking install cd for jaws or windoweyes I'd just put that in, but I'd do that after starting so you know you can hear the startup music and your sound is working, and I'd do it after the vmware tools install and restart, when you should again hear the startup music but remember you'll have to give it a minute or two for the restart and then enter your password if you have one; it won't start up without your password. If you don't think you've installed correctly, I'd just remove the whole Virtual Machines directory from you Documents directory if you don't have any other virtual machines there and start over. It really does work well once you get it going; I had a little trouble the first time but I reinstalled recently and it went much more smoothly. -- Cheryl "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."Click on the link below to go to our homepage. http://www.icanworkthisthing.com Manage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below. //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to macvoiceover-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web interface at //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceoverClick on the link below to go to our homepage. http://www.icanworkthisthing.com Manage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below. //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to macvoiceover-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web interface at //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceoverClick on the link below to go to our homepage. http://www.icanworkthisthing.com Manage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below. //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover Users can subscribe to this list by sending email tomacvoiceover-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxwith 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web interface at //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceoverClick on the link below to go to our homepage. http://www.icanworkthisthing.com Manage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below. //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to macvoiceover-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web interface at //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceoverClick on the link below to go to our homepage. http://www.icanworkthisthing.com Manage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below. //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to macvoiceover-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web interface at //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceoverClick on the link below to go to our homepage. http://www.icanworkthisthing.com Manage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below. //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to macvoiceover-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web interface at //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceoverMr. Lewis Brock Totally blind musician and composer of 21st century synth orchestral music Phone: +44 07857 352828 E-Mail: lewisjbrock@xxxxxxx Skype: lewisjbrockClick on the link below to go to our homepage. http://www.icanworkthisthing.comManage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below.//www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to macvoiceover-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web interface at //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceoverClick on the link below to go to our homepage. http://www.icanworkthisthing.comManage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below.//www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to macvoiceover-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web interface at //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceoverClick on the link below to go to our homepage. http://www.icanworkthisthing.comManage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below.//www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to macvoiceover-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web interface at //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceoverClick on the link below to go to our homepage. http://www.icanworkthisthing.comManage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below.//www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to macvoiceover-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web interface at //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceoverClick on the link below to go to our homepage. http://www.icanworkthisthing.comManage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below.//www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to macvoiceover-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web interface at //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover
Click on the link below to go to our homepage. http://www.icanworkthisthing.com Manage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below. //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceoverUsers can subscribe to this list by sending email to macvoiceover-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web interface at //www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover