John, I couldn't agree with what you said more. There is no stupid question.
Chris.----- Original Message ----- From: "John Panarese" <jpanarese@xxxxxx>
To: <mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 7:58 PM Subject: [mac4theblind] Re: What is the MacOS equivalent...I think there is a misunderstanding here. At least as far as what I said. Reference points and parallels are important when you are learning something new. I don't think anyone will disagree with that pointt.
My point, though, is in order to learn the Mac and VoiceOver effectively, you have to let go of the Windows thinking. Holding on to it for too long simply stunts your ability to really grasp the Mac and VoiceOver. Expecting the Mac and VO to behave like Windows and your Windows screen reader will only lead to frustration. Yes, you need that frame or anchor in your mind to initially make the leap from Windows, but you should stride to cut that cord as quickly as you can. It will only help you in the long run and make your transition easier and smoother and faster.
And let me say this as well while I am thinking of it. No question is stupid or silly. Not asking is stupid and silly. That's what this list is for. We're all here to help one another.
Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Nov 29, 2011, at 7:53 PM, Justin Harford wrote:
I have never observed this on mac lists. In fact I have found mac lists, including this one, to be very opened to questions which some could consider silly or uninformed. For anyone who is unsure of this, I suggest they go to one of the orca lists, and see how the linux community is.No one is offended if you try to use windows terminology to understand mac. It is really more for your own benefit. it is a recommendation, not an admonishment.Later Justin as 16:08, Tracy Duffy escribió:I agree with what you are saying. It's just that instead of saying that the dock is where programs are listed, people often say that you should forget about task bar and learn mack terms and go on about it. I guess I just meant that giving them the answer is good, but that each time an answer is given, we don't need to hear that we should just forget about what we already knew. If that's your reference point, it's hard to hear that every time and not feel like you were wrong for asking a question. I have gotten much valuable information from this list and another one like it, but so often it came with that admonition that I almost got to the point where I was afraid to ask a question unless I already knew at least half of the answer. Maybe I'm just sensative and no one else feels that way. I havheard similar complaints from others though and perhaps I'm just the only one to step forward and say something about it.When a person is brand new to Mac, they may often ask a question using the terms they are familiar with, but we can give them the answer using the Mac terms and explain what differences and points they need to know. I simply don't want people to feel like they have to be really careful about how they ask a question. It seems like it should be most important to help them get the information and learn what they need to know.tracyduffy@xxxxxxxxx2 Chronicles 20, 21B: "Give thanks to God, his faithful love endures forever."On Nov 29, 2011, at 6:19 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:For one thing, no one has done anything wrong by asking questions. For two, we're not, in your word, swatting anyone's hands, but in other people's defense, what are we gonna do, let peole keep saying, oh, that drive is located on your desktop?For one, on a mac, it's not a drive. It's a volume. for two, the edrive is not on the desktop, that is only a... shortcut?... or do we mean mac term... alias,... which mounts to the desktop... in /Volume/VolumeName.That example is rather extreme, but, are we gonna let peole sit here and say they browsed for a file through explorer? We don't have explorer on the Mac, we have the Finder. It does the same exact things, but it's not Windows. When we hit vo+shift+M, are we bringing up a context menu? No. We're bringing up the shortcut menu.If you try asking someone who only knows mac what the task bar is, they're gonna lookat you like... Huh? Wut? But if you said, where is the dock... they'd know exactly.There are not that many terms to learn, and frankly, if you're not willing to at least try to learn them... ok, I'll stop that comment... it's one thing to try learning the termanology, but not be able to get your head around it right away, thus fall back to windows terms that you know and recognise for a time. That I promote. What I don't! promote, is never even trying! to branch out and learn from a complete macintosh perspective.All in all, I'd say I half agree with your rant, but I also half disagree with it.I'm sorry if you took it as such that we were bashing the newbies, as that is no one's intention here, and shame on anyone who does so. We all learn at different paces, and at different levels, and with different styles. Some may feel better reading, where others like myself, might benefit more from an over the phone trainer as myself who for a very low nominal fee or for nothing at all, just depending on circumstances can sit down with a person one-on-one, and give them the support they need at their own speed.Chris. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Duffy To: mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 5:38 AM Subject: [mac4theblind] Re: What is the MacOS equivalent...I respect the opinions that are given here, but may I say that when I transitioned in June, it was helpful to me to at least use window terms or reference points when trying to find how how to accomplish what I needed or wanted to accomplish. Personally, I hate having my hand swatted every time I make a reference to a windows term. If a body is brand new to the Mac, they don't always know the proper term and the only way they may know to ask a question is by using the terms that they do know. It is true that you can't expect the Mac to work exactly like a windows PC, but for gooeness sake, let's work with people who are trying to learn. The same thing goes when a body is trying to find software that works with a Mac. Often times they may know a program that did what they wanted in windoes, so they will ask if there is a version for the Mac, or if anyone knows of a similar program for the Mac. I don't see why they have to get a lecture about forgetting windows terms and programs. Just give them an answer. I only say these things because I grew very tired of it when I was asking a lot of questions. Yes. I learned the Mac in a very short period of time, but that didn't mean I had all the answers. I know you all mean well, but try not to give people the impression that they've done something wrong by asking a question. I'll step down from my soap box now. (smile)tracyduffy@xxxxxxxxx2 Chronicles 20, 21B: "Give thanks to God, his faithful love endures forever."On Nov 28, 2011, at 9:07 PM, John Panarese wrote:That's the way you really have to approach it. Yes, there is the temptation and, perhaps, it's necessary to have Windows reference points to keep things straight in your mind. However, if you keep thinking in Windows terms and like you are using a Windows screen reader, I can tell you that your progress will be slow and quite frustrating. You have to cut the cord and think Mac and VoiceOver.Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT On Nov 28, 2011, at 9:05 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:Not really. I caught on to the mac in about 10 minutes and tha'ts why. I through windows out the window so to speak.. I"m not sayign I learned everythign in 1 day, but I grasped the consept in about 10 minutes and spent the next day takign notes in class and learning the mac as a brand new OS forgetting the fact that I ever learned windows.Take care all. On Nov 28, 2011, at 5:46 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:I'd have to agree here with Sarah's comments. the mac is very similar to windows, but it's just different enough to really screw you if not careful. It's kind a like the difference in Spanish vs. Portuguese.Chris.----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" <marrie12@xxxxxxxxx>To: <mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 6:14 PM Subject: [mac4theblind] Re: What is the MacOS equivalent...Yeah it would be. the doc in windows is just like the doc on the mac, But I would quit comparing mac to windows starting now and learn the terminology and use it. Don't go looking for equivilents as they are not going to be easy to spot half the time.On Nov 28, 2011, at 4:59 AM, David Hilbert Poehlman wrote:that'd be the doc right? I don't see a taskbar on the mac. On Nov 27, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:Oh yeah. oops? forgot about that. I don't much pay attention to that. thanks for the tip I forgot lol!On Nov 27, 2011, at 12:10 PM, Tracy Duffy wrote:If you go across the task bar, it will tell you when an ap is running and when it is not. For example, it will say mail running or if it just says mail it is not running at the moment and you'll need to open it if you want to work within that program. Or, if an ap is running and you don't want it to be, you'll know to close it out.tracyduffy@xxxxxxxxx2 Chronicles 20, 21B: "Give thanks to God, his faithful love endures forever."On Nov 27, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:It's the doc. and I dunno if there is a way to speak the dots. Hopefully someone can help there.On Nov 26, 2011, at 10:25 PM, JULIO PEREZ wrote:To the Windows Task Manager and/or Taskbar? That is, the place where open files are listed so that one can close or switch to them. The materials I'm reading say that open files are marked with a "bright dot" next to their icons but VO does not describe such dots. I only heard a single such mention after waking up the system. It spoke the name of the running application. Isthere a way to make that happen as desired? Julio C. 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