[lit-ideas] while I am relieved by the wedding of Ian Hacking, the question remains,,,,Re: Re: cant tell u how it is

  • From: palma <palma@xxxxxxxx>
  • To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 08:19:15 -0400 (EDT)


consider the galaxy.
who, what, constructed it?


answers that are understable are appreciated.On Sat, 25 Sep 2010, Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx wrote:

Kant tell u how it IZ and how it HAZ (Grice on izzing and hazzing)

I'm going to comment on Phatic's earlier text. Only PALMA knows what an
'idiot' is, I hope. Personally, I don't. I know very FEW things. I'm a sceptic
at heart.

----

Before Palma dropping the name of Ian Hacking (who  married Gricean
philosopheress Judith Baker), Phatic had written:

"no,  that an event or object is socially constructed does not merely mean"

I  would distinguish schematically between an object AND an event. I'm sure
R. Paul  would, too. An object is a pencil. In English, the correct
expression is  'thing'. "Material object" IS used in English, but in general,
'object' should  be reserved for epistemological concerns. It's THINGS and
events. Events should  be distinguished from FACTS. I, for example, do not 
believe
in EVENTS. I believe  in FACTS.

------

Phatic goes on:

"that we can't get at the  'an sich'-ness of the thing,"

You see. Here Phatic does recourse to the  'thing' thing. NOT "Objekt'.
Objekt is Kantian jargon. There was a query on this  recently in PHILOS-L
(online) but I failed to keep the records. The original  idea behind "object" IS
GREEK, though.

I'm not very sure about the  etymology of 'an sich'. "In itself" does not
QUITE translate it.

Of  course the point is to distinguish between the an sich -- Ding an sich,
which  Kant confusedly called "Noumenon" and the Phainomenon. I don't USE
"Noumenon"  LIKE that and it took me a while to realise about Kant's mistake
there. Sellars  prefers to speak of phenomenalism as opposed to PHYSICALISM,
rather than  noumenalism, and Patricia Routledge prefers to speak of
'keeping up  appearances', save the phainomena.

Phatic goes on:

"it means that  there are structured (and structuring) ways in which we
render objects and  events."

The reference must be to Levi-Strauss (who invented 'structures'
practically). "Structure" was NOT a philosophical jargon until philosophers  
started
to quote from Levin-Strauss.

"whether someone is rendered freedom  fighter or lewdachris isn't a
function of the non-determinate character of the  thing itself, but an effect of
structured dispositions to 'think, perceive and  act' in those who produce
meaning."

Oddly, there was a query in  World-Wide Words as to the use of 'troops' as
in "Three troops killed". An  officer with the US. government explained that
she is obligated to use the  expression 'war-fighter', as I recall.

I agree that there is a lot of  stuff BEHIND labels (such as 'freedom
fighter'). It may be said that for ANY  word, there is some history behind it.
Not to make this vacuous, I would refer  to something like Grice's "Dossier".
When we speak, we relate some concepts with  other concepts. But some
concepts may be more basic than others.

Grice  was a phenomenalist at heart -- it was all expressions like "...
seems ..."  "looks like", and such with him. Those were for them BASIC (Vide
his "Some  remarks about the senses" in Studies in the Way of Words).


Phatic  closes his interesting note:


the suggestion that there should be  objects or events outside any
meaning production is unbridled idealism  --"

Grice would be careful here as to what you mean, 'mean'.

In  general, 'mean', Grice says, is overused. I'm not sure if Norwegian,
for  example, has an exact cognate. Kemmerling, who studied Grice in German,
found  out that there is NO German word that corresponds to English 'mean'.
"Meinen" is  of course the cognate, but it means, 'to opine' in German.
"Bedeuten", which  translates as "mean", is more like 'refer'.

----

Oddly, if you  stick with "seems", "looks like", you ARE an unbridled
idealist. I LOVE  unbridled idealism!

Speranza

In a message dated 9/24/2010 9:30:17  P.M. Coordinated Universal Time,
torgeir_fjeld@xxxxxxxx writes:

what is  an idiot?

--- Den fre 2010-09-24 skrev phatic  <torgeir_fjeld@xxxxxxxx>:


Fra: phatic  <torgeir_fjeld@xxxxxxxx>
Emne: [the phatic files] Re: [lit-ideas] cant  tell u how it is
Til: torgeir_fjeld@xxxxxxxx
Dato: Fredag 24. september  2010 16.44


the suggestion is that idiots construct idiocies (viz. i  hacking)
On Thu,
23 Sep 2010, Torgeir Fjeld wrote:
no, that an  event or object is socially constructed does not merely mean
that we can't get  at the 'an sich'-ness of the thing, it means that there
are structured (and  structuring) ways in which we render objects and
events. whether someone is  rendered freedom fighter or lewdachris isn't a
function of the non-determinate  character of the thing itself, but an effect of
structured dispositions to  'think, percieve and act' in those who produce
meaning.

the  suggestion that there should be objects or events outside any
meaning prodcution  is unbridled idealism --

best,
-t
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/begin/read__>sig.file:  postal address
palma
University of KwaZulu-Natal Philosophy
3rd floor  of Memorial Tower Building
Howard College Campus
Durban 4041
South  Africa
Tel off: [+27] 031 2601591 (sec: Mrs. Yolanda Hordyk) [+27]  031-2602292
Fax [+27] 031-2603031
mobile 07 62 36 23 91 calling from  overseas +[27] 76 2362391
EMAIL: palma@xxxxxxxx
EMAIL: palma@xxxxxxxxxx
MY OFFICE IS A290@Mtb
*only when in Europe*: inst. J. Nicod
29 rue  d'Ulm
f-75005 paris france
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Ratio, enim,  nisi judex universalis esse deberet, frustra singulis datur.
[ _Quaestiones  Naturales_, Adelard of Bath ]
Signora granda, testa che massa
massa ne  passa, che quasi schissa,
Dia dei sostegni de cese e palassi
Dia de le  taje che su ne tien fissi
Dia de le onde che le ne fa grassi,
ne ingrassa  de ogni grassia, Dia Venessia -
aàh Venessia aàh Venàssia aàh Venùsia
Andrea Zanzotto, Filò, (Sezione: Recitativo Veneziano)

--
Posted  By phatic to the phatic files at 9/24/2010 02:44:00 PM

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/begin/read__>sig.file: postal address
palma
University of KwaZulu-Natal Philosophy
3rd floor of Memorial Tower Building
Howard College Campus
Durban 4041
South Africa
Tel off: [+27] 031 2601591 (sec: Mrs. Yolanda Hordyk) [+27] 031-2602292
Fax [+27] 031-2603031
mobile 07 62 36 23 91            calling from overseas +[27] 76 2362391
EMAIL: palma@xxxxxxxx
EMAIL: palma@xxxxxxxxxx

MY OFFICE IS A290@Mtb



*only when in Europe*: inst. J. Nicod
29 rue d'Ulm
f-75005 paris france
________
This e-mail message (and attachments) is confidential, and/or privileged and is 
intended for the
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you must not copy,
distribute, take any action in reliance on it or disclose it to anyone. Any 
confidentiality or
privilege is not waived or lost by reason of mistaken delivery to you.
This entity is not responsible for any information not related to the business 
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  Ratio, enim, nisi judex universalis esse deberet, frustra singulis datur.

  [ _Quaestiones Naturales_, Adelard of Bath ]



Signora granda, testa che massa
massa ne passa, che quasi schissa,
Dia dei sostegni de cese e palassi
Dia de le taje che su ne tien fissi
Dia de le onde che le ne fa grassi,
ne ingrassa de ogni grassia, Dia Venessia -

aàh Venessia aàh Venàssia aàh Venùsia

Andrea Zanzotto, Filò, (Sezione: Recitativo Veneziano)

Other related posts:

  • » [lit-ideas] while I am relieved by the wedding of Ian Hacking, the question remains,,,,Re: Re: cant tell u how it is - palma