[lit-ideas] Re: virtue-practical example of being taught
- From: "Stan Spiegel" <writeforu2@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:45:22 -0500
Marlena -
To add to what I said, the immorality of BSA behavior is so troubling around
here that even the United Way has declined to contribute to BSA. That says
something. How's the United Way around you dealing with Boy Scouts?
Stan
Portland, ME
----- Original Message -----
From: Eternitytime1@xxxxxxx
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 3:20 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: virtue-practical example of being taught
In a message dated 1/1/2006 1:22:43 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writeforu2@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:
What's taught to Boy Scouts in this area is not what they claim to be
teaching. It's what they're doing: discriminating against a stigmatized group.
Hi,
Yes, I understand well what you are saying. Within BSA (this is a problem
with the American world of scouting--not the Worldwide Scouting world...)
progress comes extremely slowly.
(Discussion lists call them the 3 G's - G-d, Girls, Gays) It was not until
1989 (I believe-it was either 89 or 86) that BSA allowed girls to be in
scouting...The American Girl Scouts was started as girls wanted to be in BSA -
as they did in the worldwide movement all over - and the heads of BSA were not
as accommodating as those overseas. Of course, the fact that Lord
Baden-Powell's daughter was one of the ones who was most insistent might have
helped things over there <wry look> Thus, he created the subset of Girl Guides
which eventually became all one...
Here in the USA, the girl G section took a LONG time to break. The Venturing
Crews began and it is really fascinating to read about it--both in terms of the
languaging when discussed on American sites/discussion lists and then to read
what Americans are saying/writing about it on both official and unofficial
sites where the readership/members are primarily from other nation-states.
The troop with which I am involved is just now getting ready to form a
Venturing Crew as a subset of itself. (most Venturing Crews are like separate
troops--though many do connect with local troops in our area) At Summer Camp
(which has three sections--and each section has many many troops--our troop
took about 40+ boys and over 20 leaders), there were a couple of Venturing
Crews there participating.
There are still few women involved--the first year I attended summer camp, I
was the only female camping with our troop full-time [we did have another
female leader who is a nurse who was there full-time but she was located in the
health lodge.) There was one other female who came for about three days. Last
year we had about seven women who camped full-time, another nurse who also
stayed at the health lodge, and about three others who were part-time. My son
tells me that I started a trend for our troop. <g> (I'm going to be the first
female to go on a high adventure trip this summer-there may be one more coming
along ... she's working hard to meet the physical requirements right now. There
were a few men having a hard time with this--I'm not really a
'break-new-ground' type of person--this is all about my son and the fact that
he likes/wants to share these experiences with me. So, the reaction to my
presence has been kind of hard to take. I'd say within our troop it is still
somewhat mix-y, though it was kind of funny to hear one of the sons of one of
the dads who is most adamant about not wanting women involved in scouting tell
me [prior to summer camp when someone asked if I was coming again] that he
hoped so--that we needed more Honored Women than just Mrs. xyz.
The G-d and Gay issues are hugely discussed on the forums where scouting is
discussed. I know from my siblings in Illinois that it is a huge huge issue up
there. I would say that the 'G-d' issue will be resolved more quickly than the
'Gay' one.
Several reasons for that. The Humanists who are wanting to be a part of BSA
are extremely literate and able to articulate their positions well. In
addition, the Worldwide Scouting movement addressed this issue a long time
ago--Lord Baden-Powell even addressed it and set up an alternative Scout Oath.
Right now, the biggest issue is how people define the word 'reverent'. In our
area, it means 'respect' and that is something that someone has/can have with
or without a belief in a Higher Being of some sort.
The "Gay" issue is harder because when the issue came to the forefront and
the issue of not being a gay leader arose, it did so because of the incredible
numbers of pedophiles that had gravitated towards scouting. Just as they do so
wherever there are a lot of kids--particularly boys in this case--there was a
lot of damage done both to the kids themselves and also to the scouting
movement. I, myself, was extremely hesitant to let my son become a scout
because I know of three boys who, when boy scouts, were abused. One entered the
gay lifestyle but mostly is bi-sexual--very confused about his sexual identity.
One married and became an alcoholic. Another married but refused to have
children. Both of the married ones still are dealing with the ramifications of
this abuse.
The main problem here is that there is such an association/misunderstanding
of the difference between a pedophile and a man who is gay. In our area, that
is probably the biggest stumbling block towards getting that particular G
removed from the protective instincts of BSA.
(It does not help to have that Man Loving Boys group so vocal--there is a
university professor in our area who is a part of that--he's very public and
very vocal and to not have the gay community work a bit harder to separate
itself from them has not helped the confusion amongst folk who don't comprehend
the difference...)
When BSA finally came to terms with the fact that there was so much abuse
occurring, they developed their Youth Protection Program--which now requires
that there be what they call 'two deep leadership' [always two adults together
when around boys who are not their own], the tents of adults are separated from
that of the boys, etc. It has helped ALOT in terms of cutting down the abuse.
Within the framework of developing the protection for boys, though, the issue
of confusion arose as to what/who is the abuser. It is interesting, though,
that within the training one goes through for Youth Protection, there is no
mention of someone being gay at all.
It's a little like what is happening within the Catholic Church because of
the PR about the whole priests who are pedophiles. (The little brother of a
friend of mine in college confessed to me, once, that his priest had told him
that sex with men was okay in G-d's eyes because it was not really 'sex'...the
kid was another who was so confused about sexuality...He made me promise not to
tell anyone and I concurred...still wonder if I should have told his sister or
someone else, though...)
and notice how they have decided to focus on the 'gayness' of priests--not
the qualities of a pedophile. Much confusion, I think.
Though--I grant you. There is also the issue of money--unfortunately. My
understanding is that the Mormon Church, which is a huge supporter of BSA on a
national level, has stated that they would completely remove themselves from
that supporting role if accommodation for gay leaders was set up. On a local
level, I'm not sure that would actually happen--there are too many people in
all different faiths who see the value of scouting for their kids. Most of the
troops that I am aware of have more of a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy--which,
while less than ideal, is a start. Not sure if the Mormon Church is who is
keeping the whole G-d issue from being resolved the way that it has been in
other parts of the World Scouting movement, but one of the issues on the local
level has been to wonder (sometimes) what the National people are doing...<wry
look>.
I primarily see this as an issue of education. It was one that the gay
community here in Missouri (and elsewhere) needs to understand--much of the
irrationality comes from a desire to protect--kind of the discussion about
whether or not one person's virtue is another's or not. There needs to be
explanation that a pedophile is different from someone who is gay. Especially
amongst the male population...This issue, in an indirect way, came up during a
talk at a Young Adult Workshop that was for librarians. The speaker was part of
the Missouri Internet Crimes division--focusing on the predators of children.
As he stated--the majority of them who prey on kids/teens are men...though they
go after boys and girls alike. He was extremely careful to explain that the
issue was one of pedophiles-and not gay folk when he talked about the different
aspects of this.
If the law enforcement community has come to this understanding, eventually
[I think] the rest of the parts of the community will come to understand this,
too.
It took me a while to understand the difference between pedophiles and gay
men, to be honest, because of the friends that I have mentioned above--I met
them all while in college and it was extremely troubling to me. None of the
young men I met in college who entered the 'gay lifestyle' did so because they
had always felt that they were gay from birth. They were all ones who had been
seduced or abused. This was not true for the girls that I met who were gay in
college--it may have been [so I have concluded] that the troubled ones were the
ones who needed to confide in someone and the others were okay. I have since
met men who are gay and they have shared that they felt that their sexual
orientation was that direction from when they were little.
But, I imagine that if you had had less contact than I did with alternative
lifestyles and then you were confronted with a slew of young men and their
parents who were suing BSA for not protecting their kids--and I looked into the
descriptions of the actions which were abuse--I also might have erred on the
side of caution as BSA did. Especially when the whole issue came to a point
whereby the national level folk felt that they needed to do something major...
I apologize for rambling about this a bit much.
I agree, it IS a problem--but one which a lot of people are working to solve.
We have a lot of discussions in our house as some of the boys in the troop we
are in are definitely not in the same traditional 'g-d' spot which the other
boys are. The discussions on the scout forums/lists are interesting as there
are so many who are of so many different faiths--and they do balance the
'traditional values' people to grow into a greater awareness of acceptance of
others (the concept of being friendly and kind)
There are lots of people in BSA who are troubled by these issues...and who,
actually, are showing that, by virtue [<g> note the word] of living by the
Scout Oath and Law, BSA ought not discriminate...
Best,
Marlena in Missouri
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