On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:59 AM, dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx < dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Palma was referring to bananas as frozen music. > > The idea being that bananas, as such, are frozen music, as such. > > In a message dated 4/30/2014 3:11:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > palmaadriano@xxxxxxxxx writes: > avoid the locution "as such" - it is purely bullshit thrown in to show > that one speaks with the literati- > consider > 0.1 what is meaning as such? > and contrast with > 0.2 what is meaning? > if anyone has a non trivial case to be made for the use of 'as such' I am > unable to fathom it. > > In general, the guideline from a Griceian perspective for the use of > alleged trivialities or otiosities* is to look for the LITERAL meaning at > the > level of the EXplicature. > > "As such" is a comparative. Note that the Germans, who lack a word like > the English 'like', in their colloquial speech, do have a very cognate > form > to English 'as'; to wit: 'als'. Phrases containing 'as such' are then, > comparatives -- they are, qua figures of speech, similes -- rather than, > say, > metaphors. > > Now 'such' has an Anglo-Saxon pedigree. The -ch sound hides an interesting > suffix. > > It started to be current c.1200, Old English swylc, swilc "just as, as, in > like manner; as if, as though; such a one, he" (pronoun and adjective), > from a Proto-Germanic compound *swalikaz "so formed" (cognates: Old Saxon > sulik, Old Norse slikr, Old Frisian selik, Middle Dutch selc, Dutch zulk, > Old > High German sulih, German solch, Gothic swaleiks), from swa "so" (see so) > + > *likan "form," source of Old English gelic "similar" (see like (adj.)). > > While it may be argued that the colloquial "suchlike" (early 15c.) is > slightly pleonastic, 'such' is German 'solch'. "Als solch". > > Palma was wondering for cases where 'as such' is NOT otiose. > > A philosophical background could be provided along Aristotelian lines. > Aristotle used 'e', which was translated into Latin as "qua". > > Thus we can say that > > Griceians eat Italian food. > > Griceians enjoy a good party. > > But it's only > > Griceians _as such_ that rely on implicature as an explanatory notion. > > In other words: Griceians qua Griceians. > > There is another use of 'as such' which is abbreviatory and useful, in > terms of the logical form involved. It does trigger the odd implicature > which > can easily be cancelled. > > Thus Grice may refer to "philosophers such as Wittgenstein", which SHOULD > include Wittgenstein, although strictly, Grice is referring to philosophers > who are LIKE Wittgenstein ('as'). But then Wittgenstein IS like > Wittgenstein. > > Griceians insist that conversation is guided by the desideratum of the > exchange of information being maximal; as such, they tend to avoid > otiosities. > > In the above, the 'as such' replaces a longer _thing_. > > Kant possibly uses 'als solch' in his "Kritik" (or one of his "Kritiks", to > be more precise). > > Cheers, > > Speranza > > (* The adjective 'otiose' as used in Griceian literature is due to Rogers > Albritton. Someone who attended his lectures at Harvard, reported that > Albritton used 'otiose' every OTHER sentence.). > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, > digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html > -- palma, e TheKwini, KZN palma cell phone is 0762362391 *only when in Europe*: inst. J. Nicod 29 rue d'Ulm f-75005 paris france