[lit-ideas] speranza is bound to become the new pentcho valev
- From: palma <palmaadriano@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: "lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 10:31:15 +0200
que viva pentcho!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 10:27 AM, palma <palmaadriano@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 10:22 AM, palma <palmaadriano@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>
>> ma di che cosa non sia dato a sapersi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:55 PM, <Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> In the middle of this post I address a sort of generalisation ("all
>>> generalisations are dangerous, including THIS one") by McEvoy regarding
>>> the
>>> English vs. the Americans, and posing this as one reason why Witters may
>>> have
>>> had an impact on the English. I address ANOTHER different
>>> generalisations by
>>> an actor (S. Coogan) that quite does not relate. But you never know. And
>>> stuff.
>>>
>>> It all has to do with the realm of implicature -- and Carmen Miranda. Or
>>> not.
>>>
>>> Grice complains that J. L. Austin (his colleague at Oxford) would OFTEN
>>> distinguish between 'imply' and 'mean' as it applies to expressions or
>>> utterers. But this distinction was OFTEN _ignored_ by "Witters".
>>>
>>> In a message dated 3/31/2014 2:49:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>> donalmcevoyuk@xxxxxxxxxxx comments on a quote by R. Paul (from N.
>>> Malcolm) to the
>>> effect that Witters enjoyed Carmen Miranda but disliked more understated
>>> British things:
>>>
>>> "And all of this is even more puzzling if we
>>> accept that the difference between what can
>>> be shown and what can be said is fundamental to
>>> W the philosopher: for this difference is
>>> reflected in the sense of English as spoken in
>>> England more than in English as spoken in
>>> America - it"
>>>
>>> Yet -- there is a region in America which the Americans call "New
>>> England". It starts with Connecticut. There was an essay in the New
>>> York Times to
>>> the effect that people in Connecticut "don't think they have an accent"
>>> --
>>> and they don't!
>>>
>>> "it", McEvoy continues,
>>>
>>> "is a striking feature of "English English" that its sense often depends
>>> on unsaid understandings (including "implicatures") that are not said in
>>> 'what is said' but shown in how 'what is said' is used."
>>>
>>> Of course this sounds Griceian (I used to spell this as 'Gricean', but
>>> an
>>> American corrected me on that front: and I later doublechecked that D.
>>> C.
>>> Dennett, the Oxford-educated American philosopher (from New England)
>>> did use
>>> 'Griceian').
>>>
>>> And it also looks Pearsian. I don't mean D. F. Pears, Grice's colleague
>>> at
>>> Oxford, but Pears of Pears Encyclopedia. Under 'understatement', or
>>> 'meiosis' (I forget), Pears (of the Pears Encyclopedia fame -- actually
>>> Pears
>>> soap fame -- and related to D. F. Pears) calls this an "English trait".
>>> I
>>> always loved that quotation.
>>>
>>> McEvoy continues:
>>>
>>> "[Indeed, this aspect of "English English" may be one of the reasons
>>> that
>>> W's work holds a fascination for English philosophers - why it resonates
>>> for them, particularly if they are philosophers focused on language.]".
>>>
>>> There may be other reasons. An English actor was saying in the New York
>>> Times this weekend -- I think it was chosen as 'quote of the week':
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/30/movies/steve-coogan-revisits-an-old-charac
>>> ter-in-alan-partridge.html?_r=0<http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/30/movies/steve-coogan-revisits-an-old-character-in-alan-partridge.html?_r=0>
>>>
>>> Steven Coogan, for that's who I mean, is reported as saying:
>>>
>>> "Americans are about success, the American dream and all that," he
>>> said. "
>>> The British get more pleasure from seeing other people fail than
>>> ourselves
>>> succeed. We like people who keep trying, even though they're losing.
>>> That'
>>> s Alan."
>>>
>>> So now let's bring Witters into the picture. You'll recall Bertrand
>>> Russell (a Brit) reprimanding Witters:
>>>
>>> "Are you depressed because of logic or because of your sins?"
>>>
>>> "Both".
>>>
>>> Witters had problems with things -- including logic and matrimony
>>> without
>>> children -- Russell didn't.
>>>
>>> "Americans are about success, the American dream and all that," he
>>> said. "
>>> The British get more pleasure from seeing other people fail than
>>> ourselves
>>> succeed. We like people who keep trying, even though they're losing.
>>> That'
>>> s Alan."
>>>
>>> ---- It may be argued that when you IMPLICATE (rather than say) there
>>> is a
>>> possibility of defeat, and you may get it wrong. When Grice was asked,
>>> on
>>> Collections, about one of his students, and he said,
>>>
>>> "He has beautiful handwriting"
>>>
>>> he was famously misunderstood as meaning that his student was hopeless
>>> as
>>> a philosopher. He actually meant, but didn't show, that his student was
>>> a
>>> calligrapher ('beautiful-hanwriter'). Or not.
>>>
>>> So let's revise McEvoy's take on the reason behind Witters's fascination
>>> by English philosophers:
>>>
>>> "[Indeed, this aspect of "English English" may be one of the reasons
>>> that
>>> W's work holds a fascination for English philosophers - why it resonates
>>> for them, particularly if they are philosophers focused on language.]".
>>>
>>> I.e. this aspect that focuses on implicature and understatement and the
>>> unsaid -- as opposed to a more overtness in American speech:
>>>
>>> Again to quote McEvoy:
>>>
>>> "the difference between what can be shown and what can be said is
>>> fundamental to W the philosopher: for this difference is reflected in
>>> the sense of
>>> English as spoken in England more than in English as spoken in America -
>>> [where, in English English its] sense often depends on unsaid
>>> understandings
>>> (including "implicatures") that are not said in 'what is said' but
>>> shown in
>>> how 'what is said' is used."
>>>
>>> I once reflected on that. I found it as Kant vs. Hegel. Grice proposes
>>> his
>>> 'conversational maxims' as Kantian universals, as it were. But there are
>>> the cunnings of conversational reason, as propounded by Hegel, say. So
>>> it
>>> may be that there is one underlying logic of conversation (as described
>>> by
>>> Grice) which gets different historical manifestations: from the English
>>> of an
>>> Oxford don (as Grice was -- with the potentially self-deafeating, "He
>>> has
>>> beautiful handwriting") to the overtness of other utterers 'across the
>>> pond' and beyond. Or not.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Speranza
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
>>> digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> palma, e TheKwini, KZN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> palma
>>
>> cell phone is 0762362391
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *only when in Europe*:
>>
>> inst. J. Nicod
>>
>> 29 rue d'Ulm
>>
>> f-75005 paris france
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> palma, e TheKwini, KZN
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> palma
>
> cell phone is 0762362391
>
>
>
>
> *only when in Europe*:
>
> inst. J. Nicod
>
> 29 rue d'Ulm
>
> f-75005 paris france
>
>
>
--
palma, e TheKwini, KZN
palma
cell phone is 0762362391
*only when in Europe*:
inst. J. Nicod
29 rue d'Ulm
f-75005 paris france
Other related posts:
- » [lit-ideas] speranza is bound to become the new pentcho valev - palma
