[lit-ideas] speranza e allora? e davidson? non e' tutto vero se no xe sopa xe pan bagn'a'
- From: palma <palmaadriano@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: "lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 10:27:16 +0200
On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 10:22 AM, palma <palmaadriano@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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> ma di che cosa non sia dato a sapersi
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> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:55 PM, <Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> In the middle of this post I address a sort of generalisation ("all
>> generalisations are dangerous, including THIS one") by McEvoy regarding
>> the
>> English vs. the Americans, and posing this as one reason why Witters may
>> have
>> had an impact on the English. I address ANOTHER different generalisations
>> by
>> an actor (S. Coogan) that quite does not relate. But you never know. And
>> stuff.
>>
>> It all has to do with the realm of implicature -- and Carmen Miranda. Or
>> not.
>>
>> Grice complains that J. L. Austin (his colleague at Oxford) would OFTEN
>> distinguish between 'imply' and 'mean' as it applies to expressions or
>> utterers. But this distinction was OFTEN _ignored_ by "Witters".
>>
>> In a message dated 3/31/2014 2:49:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> donalmcevoyuk@xxxxxxxxxxx comments on a quote by R. Paul (from N.
>> Malcolm) to the
>> effect that Witters enjoyed Carmen Miranda but disliked more understated
>> British things:
>>
>> "And all of this is even more puzzling if we
>> accept that the difference between what can
>> be shown and what can be said is fundamental to
>> W the philosopher: for this difference is
>> reflected in the sense of English as spoken in
>> England more than in English as spoken in
>> America - it"
>>
>> Yet -- there is a region in America which the Americans call "New
>> England". It starts with Connecticut. There was an essay in the New York
>> Times to
>> the effect that people in Connecticut "don't think they have an accent"
>> --
>> and they don't!
>>
>> "it", McEvoy continues,
>>
>> "is a striking feature of "English English" that its sense often depends
>> on unsaid understandings (including "implicatures") that are not said in
>> 'what is said' but shown in how 'what is said' is used."
>>
>> Of course this sounds Griceian (I used to spell this as 'Gricean', but an
>> American corrected me on that front: and I later doublechecked that D. C.
>> Dennett, the Oxford-educated American philosopher (from New England) did
>> use
>> 'Griceian').
>>
>> And it also looks Pearsian. I don't mean D. F. Pears, Grice's colleague
>> at
>> Oxford, but Pears of Pears Encyclopedia. Under 'understatement', or
>> 'meiosis' (I forget), Pears (of the Pears Encyclopedia fame -- actually
>> Pears
>> soap fame -- and related to D. F. Pears) calls this an "English trait". I
>> always loved that quotation.
>>
>> McEvoy continues:
>>
>> "[Indeed, this aspect of "English English" may be one of the reasons that
>> W's work holds a fascination for English philosophers - why it resonates
>> for them, particularly if they are philosophers focused on language.]".
>>
>> There may be other reasons. An English actor was saying in the New York
>> Times this weekend -- I think it was chosen as 'quote of the week':
>>
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/30/movies/steve-coogan-revisits-an-old-charac
>> ter-in-alan-partridge.html?_r=0<http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/30/movies/steve-coogan-revisits-an-old-character-in-alan-partridge.html?_r=0>
>>
>> Steven Coogan, for that's who I mean, is reported as saying:
>>
>> "Americans are about success, the American dream and all that," he said.
>> "
>> The British get more pleasure from seeing other people fail than
>> ourselves
>> succeed. We like people who keep trying, even though they're losing.
>> That'
>> s Alan."
>>
>> So now let's bring Witters into the picture. You'll recall Bertrand
>> Russell (a Brit) reprimanding Witters:
>>
>> "Are you depressed because of logic or because of your sins?"
>>
>> "Both".
>>
>> Witters had problems with things -- including logic and matrimony without
>> children -- Russell didn't.
>>
>> "Americans are about success, the American dream and all that," he said.
>> "
>> The British get more pleasure from seeing other people fail than
>> ourselves
>> succeed. We like people who keep trying, even though they're losing.
>> That'
>> s Alan."
>>
>> ---- It may be argued that when you IMPLICATE (rather than say) there is
>> a
>> possibility of defeat, and you may get it wrong. When Grice was asked, on
>> Collections, about one of his students, and he said,
>>
>> "He has beautiful handwriting"
>>
>> he was famously misunderstood as meaning that his student was hopeless as
>> a philosopher. He actually meant, but didn't show, that his student was a
>> calligrapher ('beautiful-hanwriter'). Or not.
>>
>> So let's revise McEvoy's take on the reason behind Witters's fascination
>> by English philosophers:
>>
>> "[Indeed, this aspect of "English English" may be one of the reasons that
>> W's work holds a fascination for English philosophers - why it resonates
>> for them, particularly if they are philosophers focused on language.]".
>>
>> I.e. this aspect that focuses on implicature and understatement and the
>> unsaid -- as opposed to a more overtness in American speech:
>>
>> Again to quote McEvoy:
>>
>> "the difference between what can be shown and what can be said is
>> fundamental to W the philosopher: for this difference is reflected in
>> the sense of
>> English as spoken in England more than in English as spoken in America -
>> [where, in English English its] sense often depends on unsaid
>> understandings
>> (including "implicatures") that are not said in 'what is said' but shown
>> in
>> how 'what is said' is used."
>>
>> I once reflected on that. I found it as Kant vs. Hegel. Grice proposes
>> his
>> 'conversational maxims' as Kantian universals, as it were. But there are
>> the cunnings of conversational reason, as propounded by Hegel, say. So it
>> may be that there is one underlying logic of conversation (as described
>> by
>> Grice) which gets different historical manifestations: from the English
>> of an
>> Oxford don (as Grice was -- with the potentially self-deafeating, "He has
>> beautiful handwriting") to the overtness of other utterers 'across the
>> pond' and beyond. Or not.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Speranza
>>
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>>
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> --
> palma, e TheKwini, KZN
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> palma
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> cell phone is 0762362391
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> *only when in Europe*:
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> inst. J. Nicod
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> 29 rue d'Ulm
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> f-75005 paris france
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--
palma, e TheKwini, KZN
palma
cell phone is 0762362391
*only when in Europe*:
inst. J. Nicod
29 rue d'Ulm
f-75005 paris france
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