Except for a little thing like your historical cases didn't apply. It's interesting that I reply to you substantively, you reply with words like wild imaginings. Maybe I should have said comparing the Mexican immigration to the Puritans and pograms and whatever the other one was, is wild imaginings and let it go at that. That may have been more satisfactory to you. As an aside, the U.S. didn't take in Holocaust refugees, as has been pointed out on this list. For Eric, real quick. Body shame isn't necessarily about clothes and their lack. In fact, shame can take the form of wearing seductive clothes; for example if one is valued only for one's body, then one is essentially not valued. Only the body counts. There's a lot of sadness over being not valued. Shame is a feeling that the *self* is defective. If only the body counts, then the self is perceived as defective because no one wants the self, just the body. The master emotion (shame) binds up the sadness. The person then dresses seductively because that's what one is valued for, while the underlying emotion is the unfelt sadness . Maybe an easier way to think of it is that unfelt (repressed) emotions are bound up in shame. Certainly demanding covering up the body is connected to shame about the body. But it's also about power, about squelching another person, literally making that person invisible, turning them into a nonentity (which in turn is really anger and hatred). I would argue that having a lot of wives is shame based because shame keeps people from communicating on an intimate level. What's the difference between 50 wives and a one night stand? I think in this country we're getting better with body shame. Pregnant women aren't hidden away any more, etc. But there's still enough of it. Regarding the Amish, I've heard they are a pretty dysfunctional lot (lots of sexual acting out) but I can't say for sure. The irony is that shame isn't shameful. It's a toxic response to a toxic state of affairs (not being valued and/or abused by parents). It really has nothing to do with the person feeling the shame. It's all about the society that perpetuates the condition. Like the example above, the person who's valued for their body. The person is fine, it's the society that values the body and not the person that's warped. Unfortunatley, people blame themselves, something they learn to do in childhood when they can't reason. > [Original Message] > From: Robert Paul <robert.paul@xxxxxxxx> > To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Date: 3/28/2006 3:27:49 PM > Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: question on immigration > > I'm sorry I even tried to reply to you, Irene. I was simply applying > your own solution to the problem of Mexican immigration to some > historical cases. The rest of your assumptions about what I might or > might not believe on these matters are unwarranted and bear no relation > to anything I've said. I'll leave you to your wild imaginings. > > Robert Paul > Reed College > > Andy Amago wrote: > > > So you're saying they're here for political reasons? Because they're being > > religiously persecuted? There are pograms against the Mexicans? The > > English effectively induced the potato famine in Ireland. Someone is, for > > political reasons, inducing famine among the Mexicans? If so, why is their > > own president supporting their emigration? Did the Irish immigrants send > > back enough money to Ireland to rival oil exports? Mexican migrants are a > > major source of income into Mexico. Where is the comparison? Where's the > > Ellis Island on the Rio Grande? > > > > Many years ago I met a, at the time, Soviet sailor who had jumped ship. He > > was here illegally. The anxiety in this poor man. Granted, the USSR had > > different "standards", but even so, today to be here illegally is all but a > > source of pride. Robert, do you favor people living above the law? If you > > don't have a driver's license, no big deal, it's only the law. If you need > > a SS number and can't get one legally, no big deal, we'll get one for you. > > Maybe laws don't matter. Corporations are corrupt (for Carol: pharma was > > the organized crime that pushed meth, see Frontline); Congress is corrupt; > > and now ordinary people march for their right to be illegal. Talk about > > trickle down. Mexico doesn't bother with laws. It functions on bribery > > and abductions and corruption. Their own president supports exporting an > > illegal population because it's good for his economy. Being above the law > > is so ingrained in third world populations generally that Mexicans march > > for their right to be above the law. Hey, maybe you're right. Let them > > not fix the problems in their own country. Let them come here, make a few > > bucks, and go back to what they know and vote for Fox. (who, btw, referred > > to women as washing machines on two legs). What's that expression? We > > have the government we deserve ... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, > digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html