[lit-ideas] Re: p.s.Re: A Whiter Shade of Pale
- From: "John McCreery" <john.mccreery@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 15:03:00 +0900
Julie, thanks. I grew up Lutheran instead of AOG, but a lot of what you say
resonates with me: Church and Sunday School, Catechism Classes, parents in
the choir and on the church council, a life immersed in religion. I remember
when I, too, would have rejected the separation of church and state, since
it seemed self-evident that religion must be the whole of life. Then came
disillusionment, philosophy, anthropology, sex. And nearly three decades now
living in a country where nearly three-quarters of the population seems
utterly indifferent to religion, except as a source of occasional fun during
the New Year holidays or at shrine festivals.
Peace be with you,
John
On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Julie Krueger <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Of all the
> > Pentecostal churches, the AOG is closest to what could be called "main
> > line."
>
> I know this response is lengthy. If you don't have the
> time/opportunity/patience to wade through my personal perspectives, I
> would beg of you to scroll down to the news piece I quote. Because
> even if you don't have time for my thoughts and experiences, I would
> truly lilke to know your thoughts and reactrions to the news piece.
>
> I guess one has to define "main line". Grant you, most AOG don't
> embrace snake-handling. And before you go in the direction you're
> headed, Lawrence, let me give you a bit of info re where I'm coming
> from. I spent roughly 15 years in the Pentecostal world, most of
> which was AOG. I have intimate experience of the AOG, understand Four
> Square theology; I attended, as a pretty smart teen, the primary
> Church connected with the AOG Headquarters in Spfld, MO for several
> years, hell, I earned merit badges out the wazzoo in Missionettes. I
> witnessed untold numbers of congregants prophesying, the baptism in
> the Holy Spirit evidenced by Speaking in Tongues, healings, etc. I
> understan.d the doctrine of the AOG inside and out. I was asked to
> read my essay on What Christianity means To Me from the pulpit to the
> 2,000 + congregation in 6th grade. I played piano and violin
> offeratories, was a member of the youth and adult choirs, put my poor
> sunday school teachers through hell, unwittingly, asking grade school
> questions like, "If humans cannot live w/out God, and Jesus was God,
> how did people live during the three days Jesus was dead?". I was in
> the AOG church orchestra, led kid choirs, participated heavily in the
> Easter and Christmas Cantatas, went on mission trips, headed for the
> altar every time I felt guilty. I was prudish, puritanical,
> sheltered, learned everything I knew about sex from Jane Austin, and
> alternated between being really scared by the people who, at every
> revival service and many others in in between, were slain in the
> spirit, and desperate to not feel guilty that I had yet to pass out in
> the aisle. If the vocabulary had existed at the time and been
> available to me, I would, as a teenager, have embraced and pushed
> abstinence only. All of this to say, I am not ignorant of the AOG or
> Pentecostal traditions, beliefs and perspectives. I lived there. I
> know whereof I speak, not merely theoretically or abstractly from some
> course in snippets of religions.
>
> As a young adult I was an involved participant in the local Catholic
> Parish, the local Jewish (Conservative, mostly Ashkenazi) Synagogue,
> and the local AOG churches.
>
> I am not ignorant, naive, uninformed, or inexperienced when it comes
> to religious expressions of various doctrines.
>
> And, quite frankly, I find things in all of the areas I've explored to
> be of value -- that includes the AOG. I am not an AOG hate monger. I
> am not anti-God. I am not contemptuous or dismissive of Catholicism.
> Or Judaism.
>
> History seems to indicate that theocracies are less than healthy for
> communities.
>
> History also seems to suggest that fringe sects/beliefs/believers are
> less than healthy.
>
> Here's the article:
>
> <<What a culture does in terms of accepted norms of interaction
> between religion and poltical systems is not exactly a matter of
> theology.
>
> Three months before she was thrust into the national political
> spotlight, Gov. Sarah Palin was asked to handle a much smaller task:
> addressing the graduating class of commission students at her one-time
> church, Wasilla Assembly of God.
>
> Her speech in June provides as much insight into her policy leanings
> as anything uncovered since she was asked to be John McCain's running
> mate.
>
> Speaking before the Pentecostal church, Palin painted the current war
> in Iraq as a messianic affair in which the United States could act out
> the will of the Lord.
>
> "Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is
> right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders,
> are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she
> exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're
> praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."
>
> Religion, however, was not strictly a thread in Palin's foreign
> policy. It was part of her energy proposals as well. Just prior to
> discussing Iraq, Alaska's governor asked the audience to pray for
> another matter -- a $30 billion national gas pipeline project that she
> wanted built in the state. "I think God's will has to be done in
> unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for
> that," she said.
>
> Palin's address, much of which was spent reflecting on the work of the
> church in which she grew up and was baptized, underscores the notion
> that her world view is deeply impacted by religion. In turn, her
> remarks raise important questions: mainly, what is Palin's faith and
> how exactly has it influenced her policies?
>
> The church runs a number of ministries providing help to poor
> neighborhoods, care for children in need, and general community
> services. But Pastor Kalnins has also preached that critics of
> President Bush will be banished to hell; questioned whether people who
> voted for Sen. John Kerry in 2004 would be accepted to heaven; charged
> that the 9/11 terrorist attacks and war in Iraq were part of a war
> "contending for your faith;" and said that Jesus "operated from that
> position of war mode."
>
> It is impossible to determine how much Wasilla Assembly of God has
> shaped Palin's thinking. She was baptized there at the age of 12 and
> attended the church for most of her adult life. When Palin was
> inaugurated as governor, the founding pastor of the church delivered
> the invocation. In 2002, Palin moved her family to a nondenominational
> church, but she continues to worship at a related Assembly of God
> church in Juneau.
>
> Moreover, she "has maintained a friendship with Wasilla Assembly of
> God and has attended various conferences and special meetings here,"
> Kalnins' office said in a statement. "As for her personal beliefs,"
> the statement added, "Governor Palin is well able to speak for herself
> on those issues."
>
> Clearly, however, Palin views the church as the source of an
> important, if sometimes politically explosive, message. "Having grown
> up here, and having little kids grow up here also, this is such a
> special, special place," she told the congregation in June. "What
> comes from this church I think has great destiny."
>
> And if the political storm over Barack Obama's former pastor Jeremiah
> Wright is any indication, Palin may face some political fallout over
> the more controversial teachings of Wasilla Assembly of God.
>
> If the church had a political alignment, it would almost surely be
> conservative. In his sermons, Kalnins did not hide his affections for
> certain national politicians.
>
> During the 2004 election season, he praised President Bush's
> performance during a debate with Sen. John Kerry, then offered a
> not-so-subtle message about his personal candidate preferences. "I'm
> not going tell you who to vote for, but if you vote for this
> particular person, I question your salvation. I'm sorry." Kalnins
> added: "If every Christian will vote righteously, it would be a
> landslide every time."
>
> Months after hinting at possible damnation for Kerry supporters,
> Kalnins bristled at the treatment President Bush was receiving over
> the federal government's handling of Hurricane Katrina. "I hate
> criticisms towards the President," he said, "because it's like
> criticisms towards the pastor -- it's almost like, it's not going to
> get you anywhere, you know, except for hell. That's what it'll get
> you."
>
> Much of his support for the current administration has come in the
> realm of foreign affairs. Kalnins has preached that the 9/11 attacks
> and the invasion of Iraq were part of a "world war" over the Christian
> faith, one in which Jesus Christ had called upon believers to be
> willing to sacrifice their lives.
>
> What you see in a terrorist -- that's called the invisible enemy.
> There has always been an invisible enemy. What you see in Iraq,
> basically, is a manifestation of what's going on in this unseen world
> called the spirit world. ... We need to think like Jesus thinks. We
> are in a time and a season of war, and we need to think like that. We
> need to develop that instinct. We need to develop as believers the
> instinct that we are at war, and that war is contending for your
> faith. ... Jesus called us to die. You're worried about getting hurt?
> He's called us to die. Listen, you know we can't even follow him
> unless you are willing to give up your life. ... I believe that Jesus
> himself operated from that position of war mode. Everyone say "war
> mode." Now you say, wait a minute Ed, he's like the good shepherd,
> he's loving all the time and he's kind all the time. Oh yes he is --
> but I also believe that he had a part of his thoughts that knew that
> he was in a war.
>
> As for his former congregant and current vice presidential candidate,
> Kalnins has asserted that Palin's election as governor was the result
> of a "prophetic call" by another pastor at the church who prayed for
> her victory. "[He made] a prophetic declaration and then unfolds the
> kingdom of God, you know."
>
> Even Palin expressed surprise at that pastor's advocacy for her
> candidacy. "He was praying over me," she said in June. "He's praying,
> 'Lord make a way, Lord make a way...' And I'm thinking, this guy's
> really bold, he doesn't even know what I'm gonna do, he doesn't know
> what my plans are, and he's praying not, 'Oh Lord, if it be your will
> may she become governor,' or whatever. No, he just prayed for it. He
> said, 'Lord, make a way, and let her do this next step.' And that's
> exactly what happened. So, again, very very powerful coming from this
> church."
>
> In his sermons, Pastor Kalnins has also expressed beliefs that, while
> not directly political, lie outside of mainstream Christian thought.
>
> He preaches repeatedly about the "end times" or "last days," an
> apocalyptic prophesy held by a small but vocal group of Christian
> leaders. During his appearance with Palin in June, he declared, "I
> believe Alaska is one of the refuge states in the last days, and
> hundreds of thousands of people are going to come to the state to seek
> refuge and the church has to be ready to minister to them."
>
> He also claims to have received direct "words of knowledge" from God,
> providing him information about past events in other people's lives.
> During one sermon, he described being paired with a complete stranger
> during a golf outing. "I said, I'm a minister from Alaska and I want
> you to know that your wife left you -- you know that your wife left
> you and that the Lord is gonna defend you in a very short time, and it
> wasn't your fault. And the man drops his clubs, he literally was about
> to tee off and he dropped his clubs, and he says, 'Who the blank are
> you?' And I says, 'well, I'm a minister.' He says, 'how do you know
> about my life? What do you know?' And I started giving him more of the
> word of knowledge to his life and he was freaked out."
>
> Kalnins has, of course, preached on a bevy of topics ranging from
> humility to "overcoming bitterness." But the more controversial
> remarks reported above were not out of the norm, appearing in numerous
> sermons spanning the four years of available recordings.
>
> As for Palin, her views on these topics is more opaque. In the wake of
> the controversy over Jeremiah Wright, a debate has raged about whether
> political figures should be held responsible for the comments of their
> religious guiders. Clearly, however, Kalnins, like many national
> conservative religious leaders, sees Alaska's governor as one of his
> own. "Gov. Sarah Palin is the real deal," he told his church this past
> summer. "You know, some people put on a show...but she's the real
> deal.">>
>
> Julie Krueger
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Lawrence Helm
> <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Is this one more avenue of attack? I haven't heard anyone else using it.
> >
> >
> >
> > I did check and discovered Rev. Ed Kalnins, is senior pastor at Wasilla
> > Assembly of God Church. Sarah Palin did attend the Assemblies of God
> church
> > but is now a member of the Wasilla Bible Church. The Senior Pastor is
> Larry
> > Kroon.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm very familiar with the Assemblies of God and as well as Independent
> > denominations. None of them espouse the sort of conspiracy theories
> that
> > Jeremiah Wright does.
> >
> >
> >
> > You are going to have a tough row to hoe if you try to compare the
> > Assemblies of God teachings with those of Reverend Wright. Of all the
> > Pentecostal churches, the AOG is closest to what could be called "main
> > line."
> >
> >
> >
> > Lawrence
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
> lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On Behalf Of Julie Krueger
> > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 9:31 PM
> > To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [lit-ideas] p.s.Re: A Whiter Shade of Pale
> >
> >
> >
> > Re. apostasy -- check out the Wallissa Church Palin has attended since
> >
> > child-hood, her pastor Ed Kalnins ( makes Jeremiah Wright look
> >
> > downright grounded and sane), Deominionism, and Joel's Army.
> >
> >
> >
> > Julie Krueger
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Julie Krueger <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Unrelated, really, but I had just sent an e-mail to a friend
> >
> >> describing McCain's speech as a whiter shade of gray when I saw this.
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Julie Krueger
> >
> >>
> >
> >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Mike Geary <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >
> >>> My son and I were talking about the Republican convention. He said
> that
> >
> >>> he'd read somewhere that 58 percent of whites in America vote
> Republican.
> >
> >>> It depressed him greatly. I told him to get over it. Before he dies
> of
> >>> old
> >
> >>> age whites will be a minority riding at the back of the bus. That
> >>> cheered
> >
> >>> him, but he kept going on about all the corpulent white men at the
> >
> >>> convention who all looked clone-like. He's young -- well, 32 -- but
> >>> that's
> >
> >>> young when it comes to tolerating your enemies.
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> He was dismissive of Sarah Palin. I told him that I think she has a
> >>> great
> >
> >>> career ahead of her as an inspirational speaker. America needs people
> >>> who
> >
> >>> can rouse insouciant employees to give their all to management programs
> >>> that
> >
> >>> co-opt their grievances.
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> If you were raised in a political family, you absolutely love all this
> >>> high
> >
> >>> drama. The fate of the universe depends on it. Politics is the purest
> >
> >>> of religions. "Wherever two or more of you are gathered together,
> there
> >>> is
> >
> >>> politics." Jesus said that. It's writ down somewhere. I can't
> remember
> >
> >>> where. God, of course, has spoken to most of us, so we know how to
> vote
> >>> --
> >
> >>> there's no flirting with 'independent' apostasy.
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Mike Geary
> >
> >>> Memphis
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>
> >
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--
John McCreery
The Word Works, Ltd., Yokohama, JAPAN
Tel. +81-45-314-9324
http://www.wordworks.jp/
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