[lit-ideas] junk thought
- From: palma <palmaadriano@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: "lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 08:14:35 +0200
1. the chairman was called if in writing at all with none of the roman
letters used by speranza or wikipedia or somebody
2. ask a chinese speaker
3. reminder d/t sounds are un marked
On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 2:10 PM, Redacted sender Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx for
DMARC <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> We are discussing What Is Said And What Is Shown.
>
> In a message dated 5/14/2014 2:02:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> _donalmcevoyuk@xxxxxxxx.uk_ (mailto:donalmcevoyuk@xxxxxxxxxxx) asks as
> to consider
> an utterance:
> "No, it's not. It's not. It's really not." -- and writes:
> "This construction," McEvoy notes, "may be an example ... of one
> [construction] that SHOWS its SENSE and where it would MISS that SENSE to
> interpret
> it merely as a set of "otiose" repetitions. We may SAY the sense it SHOWS
> is, in part, one where writing imitates a common aspect of speech, where
> speech sometimes shows this kind of repetitious emphasis."
>
> Good. Actually, perhaps we may not *just* SAY that the sense it shows is,
> in part, one where writing imitates a common aspect of speech, but we may
> also *SHOW* _that_.
>
> On the other hand, in a message dated 5/14/2014 2:17:24 A.M. Eastern
> Daylight Time, palmaadriano@xxxxxxxxx asks us to consider the utterance:
>
> Mao Tse Tung was called "Mao Tse Tung".
>
> --- and writes:
>
> "As predicted by Kripke it is not very trifling, since it is false."
>
> This may be a good opportunity to check with Wikipedia. Wikipedia notes
> that the boy was indeed baptised Mao Zedong.
>
> Mao Zedong was born on December 26, 1893 in the rural village of
> Shaoshanchong in Shaoshan.
>
> His father had the same first name, and was called "Mao Yichang."
>
> In later years, Mao Zedong will describe his father ("Mao Wichang") as a
> stern disciplinarian, punishing his four children — Mao Zedong had two
> brothers, Mao Zemin and Mao Zetan, and an adopted girl, Zejian — for
> perceived
> wrongdoings, sometimes by beating them."
>
> The references provided by Wikipedia include:
>
> Schram, Stuart (1966). Mao Tse-Tung. London: Simon & Schuster. ISBN
> 978-0-14-020840-5.
> "Biography" (2005). Mao Tse Tung: China's Peasant Emperor (Television
> production). A&E Network. ASIN B000AABKXG. Retrieved January 18, 2013.
>
> So I would re-take the utterance:
>
> i. Mao Tse Tung was called "Mao Tse Tung".
>
> To be expanded to read:
>
> ii. Mao Tse Tung was called "Mao Tse Tung" by Stuart Schram (in his
> biography published by Simon & Schuster).
>
> Palma may object and may want to propose as a more correct replacement for
> (ii):
>
> iii. Mao Zedong was called, wrongly, "Mao Tse Tung" by Stuart Schram (in
> his biography of Mao Zedong -- entitled "Mao Tse Tung", published by Simon
> and Schuster).
>
> Since Schram in fact uses "Mao Tse-Tung", with a hyphen, it may be best to
> use the "BIOGRAPHY" example:
>
> iv. Mao Tse Tung was called "Mao Tse" Tung" by the producers of the
> BIOGRAPHY television production.
>
> Re-interpreted, correctly, by Palma, to read:
>
> v. Mao Zedong was called, wrongly, "Mao Tse Tung" by the producers of the
> BIOGRAPHY television production.
>
> This may apply to Wittgenstein's Moses, too.
>
> Witters is not too sure what 'predicate' that applies to "Moses" is best
> used to _show_ how we _name_ Moses.
>
> He NEVER mentions that
>
> vi. Moses was called "Moses".
>
> which alla Palma, would be wrong, since, as Wikipedia tells us,
>
> vii. Moses was called "מֹשֶׁה".
>
> By the same token, to replace Kripke's piece of brilliant prose:
>
> "Actually sentences like 'Socrates is called "Socrates"' [and mutatis
> mutandis, 'Moses is called "Moses"] are very interesting and one can
> spend,
> strange as it may seem, hours talking about their analysis. I actually
> did,
> once, do that. I won't do that, however, on this occasion. (See how high
> the
> seas of language can rise. And at the lowest points too.)"
>
> But in fact, Palma would argue that IT IS FALSE that
>
> viii. Socrates was called "Socrates".
>
> Rather, checking with Wikipedia, we have
>
> ix. Socrates was called "Σωκράτης".
>
> Cheers,
>
> Speranza
>
>
> In Section 79 of Philosophical Investigations, Wittgenstein writes: "If
> one says
>
> i. Moses did not exist.
>
> this may MEAN various things."
>
> "It may mean:
>
> ii. The Israelites did not have a single leader when they withdrew from
> Egypt.
>
> ——or it may mean that
>
> iii. The Israelite's leader was NOT called Moses
>
> ——-or it may mean that
>
> iv. There cannot have been anyone who accomplished all that the Bible
> relates of Moses
>
> ——or it may mean
>
> v. etc. etc.
>
> "We may say, following Russell: the NAME "Moses" can be defined by means
> of various descriptions." "For example, as
>
> vi. "Moses" names the man who led the Israelites through the
> wilderness.
> vii. "Moses" names the man who lived at that time and place and was then
> called 'Moses'.
> viii. "Moses" names the man who as a child was taken out of the Nile by
> Pharaoh's daughter.
>
> and so on. "And according as we assume one definition or another the
> proposition, our
> original utterance
>
> i. Moses did not exist.
>
> acquires a different SENSE, and so does every other proposition about
> Moses." "And if we are told, in general
>
> ib. "N did not exist"
>
> we do ask: "What do you mean? Do you want to say . . . . . . or . . . .
> . . etc.?" "When I make a statement about Moses,— am I always ready to
> substitute some one of these descriptions for "Moses"?" "I shall perhaps
> say as follows." "By "Moses" I understand the man who did what the Bible
> relates of Moses,
> or at any rate a good deal of it." "But how much?" "Have I decided how
> much must be proved false for me to give up my proposition as false?"
> "Has
> the NAME "Moses" got a fixed and unequivocal use for me in all
> possible cases? "Is it not the case that I have, so to speak, a whole
> series of props inreadiness, and am ready to lean on one if another
> should
> be taken from under me and vice versa?"
>
> These are deep questions.
>
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--
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palma
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