Lawrence, you are perfectly right re democracy. Campaign, get on the ballot and people vote for it.
This is what I have always believed in. However, lately I have been thinking more and more about Plato's "Republic." The part about how democracy leads to demagogues. About parading a tall woman through the streets of Athens and getting people to believe that she was Athena. Similar to people telling others that their will is that of Jesus. Just like many Muslims who say their will is that of Allah.
After demagogues, come dictatorships. We have already had a taste of that with Bush's signing statements. I know. Clinton did it too. We ought to have stopped it right there, but we didn't.
I think you might not want to proceed with this discussionwhen I tell you that I believe the last two presidential elections were stolen by Republicans.
I posted the little sermon from Rev. Cook so you would see that there are Christians who disagree with you. You have just turned this into an atheist, leftist discussion so you think you come out correctly by name calling.
Re civil war, you will remember that the religious wars in Europe were between Christians with differing points of view. You know, all those moral Christians like Cardinal Richelieu the Catholic supporting the Protestants. It is the history of that led our Founding Fathers to pass the First Amendment to prevent it happening here. They are probably spinning in their graves.
Veronica----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:14 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: faith and politics Veronica, Okay, “intrude into the lives” is different from intruding into the state in such a way that the separation of church and state is violated. This is different from the earlier discussion in which you invoked Juan Cole who said, But the values of his handpicked running mate, Sarah Palin, more resemble those of Muslim fundamentalists than they do those of the Founding Fathers.” If were done Juan Cole we can move ahead. In regard to your concern about Christianity “intruding into lives,” Jesus said, “all power on heaven and earth have been given unto me, therefore go into all the world making disciples of all men and teaching them the things I have told you.” I am writing that from memory so a quibbler is sure to get me there, but this is called “The Great Commission.” It is one of the Christian distinctive. It is this Christian command that causes many Christians to evangelize and to “witness.” Once a person becomes a believer, he is supposed to be “disciple,” or taught. You aren’t going to get Christians to stop doing that. As to getting opinions made into laws, Christians have as much right to do that as anyone else. It’s the American way. You campaign, get something on the ballot and people vote for or against it. That’s an intrinsic part of Liberal Democracy. What you are doing is voicing your opinion against what certain Christians believe. But they have the equal right to voice their opinions against what you believe. Do you favor democracy only when the vote turns out your way? And one mustn’t forget that if “abortion” were put to the vote, as it was, the majority would oppose it as it has many times. The will of the people was overturned by a Leftist Supreme Court; hence the Leftist panic that the Supreme Court may become less Leftist (as a result of the Left losing the presidency; which appoints Supreme Court Justices) and make a decision which corresponds to the popular opinion of the nation on this issue. I’m sorry you feel crippled. In my view Christians are weak, ineffective and have just two main issues they are concerned about politically, abortion and gay rights, which are insignificant footnotes to the world view they ought to be advocating politically. That some atheists (unless you are alone in this, Veronica) are blowing these two issues all out of proportion and claiming that Christian advocacy will necessitate a civil war is bizarre. Lawrence Helm From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Veronica Caley Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 8:34 AM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: faith and politics If there are Christians campaigning about something I wasn’t aware of it, but there isn’t anything wrong with that either. That’s also the way we do things in a Liberal Democracy. We campaign, opinionate, protest and vote. But we don’t “intrude” in the way the church did before the Peace of Westphalia. Lawrence My whole point Lawrence was that fundamentalists do intrude into the lives of people who don't share their beliefs. Did you read Marlena's first post re this topic? Among other things, they intrude into family issues that are not any of their business. I gave examples and you accused me of advocating licentiousness. Silly, to say the least. Among other things, the right of privacy is denied in some quarters. Witness the sad case of Ms. Terry Schiavo. I started this whole thing not by objecting to anyone voicing her opinion but placing these opinions into laws that affect everyone who does not share this faith based opinion. Which is another way of saying you will do what I think my God wants or else. I have another concern here. Because the country is divided more or less in half, I see another civil war coming sooner or later over religion and it's crippling hand over our lives. Not us, but our grandchildren. Veronica----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Helm <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:39 AM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: faith and politics Veronica. You quote me as saying “they voice their opinions” and then respond by saying “they DO voice their opinions” as though I said “they do NOT voice their opinions.” I didn’t say that. Islamism intrudes religion into the state. There is no separation. Christianity does not do that. There is separation. Yes Christians have opinions. Everyone does. That is not an intrusion. That is the norm of Liberal Democracy. If there are Christians campaigning about something I wasn’t aware of it, but there isn’t anything wrong with that either. That’s also the way we do things in a Liberal Democracy. We campaign, opinionate, protest and vote. But we don’t “intrude” in the way the church did before the Peace of Westphalia. Lawrence -----Original Message----- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of eternitytime1@xxxxxxx Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:58 AM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] faith and politics Hi, Phil, This was the part of Lawrence's post that I was referring to: From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Religion and politics Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:02:04 -0700 Nonsense Veronica. Christian Fundamentalists do not intrude themselves into public policy decisions. They voice their opinions. No one is even campaigning for a Christian position since Falwell died. Most of them believe fervently in the separation of church and state like the rest of us. Most of them, if they are hard-core Fundamentalists, won’t run for office because “the time is near.? My point was that they DO voice their opinions--and do very much have an agenda. I actually did not mean to say that it was 'good' or 'bad' that they did so. I was just trying to point out that they are doing so--and who some of the major players still are You are correct--that is not all of them nor is it the ones who have been trying to rise up and create an opposite "Christian" point of view--like the 86 Christian evangelicals who signed a global initiative dealing with global warmingpeople like Rick Warren come to mind-but it was argued against bof the more Far Right Christian Fundamentalists--see the NY Times article at http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/08/national/08warm.html?_r=1&ex=1155787200&en =19d0c89eb3b4f5c6&ei=5070&oref=slogin Peope like Brian McCla ren have gone through alot of criticism for not holding fast to the fundamentalist agenda but still focusing very strongly on doctrine [the emerging church world-- Not to mention people like Jim Wallis who has always been active in trying to turn the focus of the Christian agenda towards the caretaking of the living--in very different ways than the fundamentalists You are absolutely right--we do tend to bring our belief system to the table--as people like Former Sen Jack Danforth have stated in his book Faith and Politics. But, Jerry Falwell, while raising the bar and pushing forward the agenda of the Far Right, is by no means the only leader in that world. (Nor is Pat Robertson) Best, Marlena ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1668 - Release Date: 9/12/2008 6:56 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1668 - Release Date: 9/12/2008 6:56 AM ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
