[lit-ideas] Re: cant tell u how it is
- From: Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 03:20:27 EDT
Kant tell u how it IZ and how it HAZ (Grice on izzing and hazzing)
I'm going to comment on Phatic's earlier text. Only PALMA knows what an
'idiot' is, I hope. Personally, I don't. I know very FEW things. I'm a sceptic
at heart.
----
Before Palma dropping the name of Ian Hacking (who married Gricean
philosopheress Judith Baker), Phatic had written:
"no, that an event or object is socially constructed does not merely mean"
I would distinguish schematically between an object AND an event. I'm sure
R. Paul would, too. An object is a pencil. In English, the correct
expression is 'thing'. "Material object" IS used in English, but in general,
'object' should be reserved for epistemological concerns. It's THINGS and
events. Events should be distinguished from FACTS. I, for example, do not
believe
in EVENTS. I believe in FACTS.
------
Phatic goes on:
"that we can't get at the 'an sich'-ness of the thing,"
You see. Here Phatic does recourse to the 'thing' thing. NOT "Objekt'.
Objekt is Kantian jargon. There was a query on this recently in PHILOS-L
(online) but I failed to keep the records. The original idea behind "object"
IS
GREEK, though.
I'm not very sure about the etymology of 'an sich'. "In itself" does not
QUITE translate it.
Of course the point is to distinguish between the an sich -- Ding an sich,
which Kant confusedly called "Noumenon" and the Phainomenon. I don't USE
"Noumenon" LIKE that and it took me a while to realise about Kant's mistake
there. Sellars prefers to speak of phenomenalism as opposed to PHYSICALISM,
rather than noumenalism, and Patricia Routledge prefers to speak of
'keeping up appearances', save the phainomena.
Phatic goes on:
"it means that there are structured (and structuring) ways in which we
render objects and events."
The reference must be to Levi-Strauss (who invented 'structures'
practically). "Structure" was NOT a philosophical jargon until philosophers
started
to quote from Levin-Strauss.
"whether someone is rendered freedom fighter or lewdachris isn't a
function of the non-determinate character of the thing itself, but an effect
of
structured dispositions to 'think, perceive and act' in those who produce
meaning."
Oddly, there was a query in World-Wide Words as to the use of 'troops' as
in "Three troops killed". An officer with the US. government explained that
she is obligated to use the expression 'war-fighter', as I recall.
I agree that there is a lot of stuff BEHIND labels (such as 'freedom
fighter'). It may be said that for ANY word, there is some history behind it.
Not to make this vacuous, I would refer to something like Grice's "Dossier".
When we speak, we relate some concepts with other concepts. But some
concepts may be more basic than others.
Grice was a phenomenalist at heart -- it was all expressions like "...
seems ..." "looks like", and such with him. Those were for them BASIC (Vide
his "Some remarks about the senses" in Studies in the Way of Words).
Phatic closes his interesting note:
> the suggestion that there should be objects or events outside any
meaning production is unbridled idealism --"
Grice would be careful here as to what you mean, 'mean'.
In general, 'mean', Grice says, is overused. I'm not sure if Norwegian,
for example, has an exact cognate. Kemmerling, who studied Grice in German,
found out that there is NO German word that corresponds to English 'mean'.
"Meinen" is of course the cognate, but it means, 'to opine' in German.
"Bedeuten", which translates as "mean", is more like 'refer'.
----
Oddly, if you stick with "seems", "looks like", you ARE an unbridled
idealist. I LOVE unbridled idealism!
Speranza
In a message dated 9/24/2010 9:30:17 P.M. Coordinated Universal Time,
torgeir_fjeld@xxxxxxxx writes:
what is an idiot?
--- Den fre 2010-09-24 skrev phatic <torgeir_fjeld@xxxxxxxx>:
Fra: phatic <torgeir_fjeld@xxxxxxxx>
Emne: [the phatic files] Re: [lit-ideas] cant tell u how it is
Til: torgeir_fjeld@xxxxxxxx
Dato: Fredag 24. september 2010 16.44
the suggestion is that idiots construct idiocies (viz. i hacking)
On Thu,
23 Sep 2010, Torgeir Fjeld wrote:
> no, that an event or object is socially constructed does not merely mean
that we can't get at the 'an sich'-ness of the thing, it means that there
are structured (and structuring) ways in which we render objects and
events. whether someone is rendered freedom fighter or lewdachris isn't a
function of the non-determinate character of the thing itself, but an effect
of
structured dispositions to 'think, percieve and act' in those who produce
meaning.
>
> the suggestion that there should be objects or events outside any
meaning prodcution is unbridled idealism --
>
> best,
> -t
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/begin/read__>sig.file: postal address
palma
University of KwaZulu-Natal Philosophy
3rd floor of Memorial Tower Building
Howard College Campus
Durban 4041
South Africa
Tel off: [+27] 031 2601591 (sec: Mrs. Yolanda Hordyk) [+27] 031-2602292
Fax [+27] 031-2603031
mobile 07 62 36 23 91 calling from overseas +[27] 76 2362391
EMAIL: palma@xxxxxxxx
EMAIL: palma@xxxxxxxxxx
MY OFFICE IS A290@Mtb
*only when in Europe*: inst. J. Nicod
29 rue d'Ulm
f-75005 paris france
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Ratio, enim, nisi judex universalis esse deberet, frustra singulis datur.
[ _Quaestiones Naturales_, Adelard of Bath ]
Signora granda, testa che massa
massa ne passa, che quasi schissa,
Dia dei sostegni de cese e palassi
Dia de le taje che su ne tien fissi
Dia de le onde che le ne fa grassi,
ne ingrassa de ogni grassia, Dia Venessia -
aàh Venessia aàh Venàssia aàh Venùsia
Andrea Zanzotto, Filò, (Sezione: Recitativo Veneziano)
--
Posted By phatic to the phatic files at 9/24/2010 02:44:00 PM
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