[lit-ideas] Re: bombing for ??
- From: "Steven G. Cameron" <stevecam@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:26:10 -0500
Omar Kusturica wrote:
> --- carol kirschenbaum <cskir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Having lived in Israel for
>>
>>>seven years, I think that I have got the right to
>>
>>form
>>
>>>some opinions.
>>
>>And nobody else here does, according to you--unless
>>they agree with you.
>>Your claim to objectivity, based on this oft-stated
>>credential (having lived
>>in Israel), has worn thin.
>
>
> *I have not claimed objectivity, read my lips, I have
> only claimed familiarity with both sides of the case.
> I have not claimed that I view them both with an equal
> amount of sympathy or give them equal weight.
**Understood, Omar. But aren't you perhaps missing an opportunity for
bolstering your case -- by continually attacking the Israeli supporters
instead of their message?? And would it not be better to produce more
balanced evidence than your usually obvious single-minded Palestinian
operated news organizations (despite the now and again Ha'Aretz articles
and one or two others)?? Are they more believable than MEMRI --
according to whom??
>
> We all have a "right" to
>
>>voice our opinions here.
>
>
> *My objection was not to you expressing your opinions,
> but to your manner of doing so selectively, only on
> those occasions when you are certain to hold a high
> moral ground, as you are doing here.
>
**Are you not following that very same behaviour??
>
>>Most of the people you label pro-Israel--all of them
>>on this list, to my
>>knowledge--are deeply sympathetic to the human
>>suffering on all sides. I
>>doubt that there's anyone who is "anti-Palestinian"
>>on this list.
>
>
> *Your beatiful souls aside, the very title of this
> thread strikes me as being nearly racist. The violence
> that comes from the Palestinian camp springs not from
> daily suffering under the occupation, or even from
> their political ideals, but from some alleged sexual
> pathology inherent to their society. If that is not
> "anti-Palestinian," I wonder what would be.
**A (not so) neat elision -- perhaps the point under current discussion
is (should be) more important.
**Omar: do YOU have a plan or idea to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian
situation -- perhaps even an outline to limn for us...??
TC,
/Steve Cameron, NJ
>
> O.K.
>
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Omar Kusturica" <omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx>
>>To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 4:57 AM
>>Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: bombing for sex
>>
>>
>>
>>>Here is another pro-Israeli poster who only chimes
>>
>>in
>>
>>>when there is an easy ball to hit. As for me, I
>>
>>don't
>>
>>>hide my pro-Palestinian sympathies, and yes, my
>>>dislike of some elements of the Israeli political
>>>constitution and society. Having lived in Israel
>>
>>for
>>
>>>seven years, I think that I have got the right to
>>
>>form
>>
>>>some opinions. In the same time, I still read
>>
>>Israeli
>>
>>>media, apart from Jerusalem Post, and I am
>>
>>familiar
>>
>>>with the Israeli point of view about the conflict
>>>first hand. Those who rely on the MEMRI for the
>>
>>Arab
>>
>>>point of view about Israel get an extremely
>>
>>distorted,
>>
>>>indeed twisted picture, being sold under the
>>
>>pretense
>>
>>>of cool objectivity.
>>>
>>>O.K.
>>>
>>>
>>>--- Stan Spiegel <writeforu2@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I am sorry that some pro-Israeli posters here -
>>
>>and
>>
>>>>I
>>>>definitely include you in this description, for
>>
>>I
>>
>>>>haven't got much faith in the MEMRI-style of
>>>>one-sided objectivity - are only prepared to
>>
>>have a
>>
>>>>discussion on their own terms. O.K.
>>>>
>>>>Omar:
>>>>
>>>>Are you saying that, unlike pro-Israeli posters,
>>
>>you
>>
>>>>are prepared to be
>>>>objective? I for one don't hear the objectivity
>>
>>you
>>
>>>>claim in your
>>>>commentary. I only hear an anti-Israeli
>>
>>viewpoint
>>
>>>>everytime you send a note.
>>>>While I'm pro-Israeli, I admit there's a lot to
>>
>>be
>>
>>>>criticized about Israel.
>>>>As a pro-Palestinian, you never acknowledge
>>
>>what's
>>
>>>>problematic about the
>>>>Palestinian side of this war. Your
>>
>>black-and-white
>>
>>>>vision doesn't do the
>>>>conflict justice.
>>>>
>>>>Stan Spiegel
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Omar Kusturica" <omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 9:56 PM
>>>>Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: bombing for sex
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Julie,
>>>>>
>>>>>I posted previously an article that discussed
>>
>>this
>>
>>>>>incident, which you ignored and posted your
>>
>>own
>>
>>>>report
>>>>
>>>>>instead. The article corrected some plain
>>>>
>>>>inaccuracies
>>>>
>>>>>found in the report you post (for example, the
>>
>>boy
>>
>>>>was
>>>>
>>>>>16 not 14) and more importantly brought to
>>
>>light
>>
>>>>some
>>>>
>>>>>contradictions in the Israeli version of the
>>
>>case.
>>
>>>>For
>>>>
>>>>>example, it is extremely curious that the IDF,
>>>>
>>>>which
>>>>
>>>>>is not normally eager to have the proceedings
>>
>>at
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>checkpoints televised, had TV cameras on the
>>
>>ready
>>
>>>>2
>>>>
>>>>>hours ahead of time. It's also contradictory
>>
>>that
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>boy allegedly accepted 100 shekels (about 20
>>
>>US $)
>>
>>>>to
>>>>
>>>>>commit suicide, though this may be explained
>>
>>by
>>
>>>>his
>>>>
>>>>>apparent mental retardedness. The boy's
>>
>>parents
>>
>>>>said
>>>>
>>>>>that it was 'wrong to use childen in this
>>
>>way,'
>>
>>>>but
>>>>
>>>>>exactly who used him is far from clear.
>>>>>
>>>>>I am sorry that some pro-Israeli posters here
>>
>>-
>>
>>>>and I
>>>>
>>>>>definitely include you in this description,
>>
>>for I
>>
>>>>>haven't got much faith in the MEMRI-style of
>>>>>one-sided objectivity - are only prepared to
>>
>>have
>>
>>>>a
>>>>
>>>>>discussion on their own terms.
>>>>>
>>>>>O.K.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--- JulieReneB@xxxxxxx wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Anyone know what the American currency
>>>>
>>>>equivalent to
>>>>
>>>>>>a shekel in Israel is
>>>>>>these days? Here we have a political
>>
>>ideology
>>
>>>>>>attempting to make inroads by
>>>>>>paying a kid and promising him after-life
>>
>>sex,
>>
>>>>in
>>>>
>>>>>>exchange for blowing himself
>>>>>>and a bunch of other people up. Interesting
>>>>>>variation on prostituting minors.
>>>>>>Whole new pathologies are being born. Do
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>Palestinians really consider
>>>>>>this defensible??? Does the Arab world in
>>>>>>general????
>>>>>><<"Blowing myself up is the only chance I've
>>
>>got
>>
>>>>to
>>>>
>>>>>>have sex with 72 virgins
>>>>>>in the Garden of Eden," a
>>
>>14-and-a-half-year-old
>>
>>>>>>Palestinian boy told his
>>>>>>Israeli investigators after being caught
>>
>>wearing
>>
>>>>an
>>>>
>>>>>>8kg explosives belt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Husam Muhammad Bilal Abdu from Masahiya
>>>>
>>>>neighborhood
>>>>
>>>>>>in Nablus was captured
>>>>>>Wednesday afternoon by IDF troops near the
>>>>
>>>>Hawara
>>>>
>>>>>>roadblock near Nablus, the
>>>>>>same place an 11-year-old boy was caught
>>
>>with a
>>
>>>>bomb
>>>>
>>>>>>last week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"They told me that this was the only way,
>>
>>and
>>
>>>>they
>>>>
>>>>>>promised that my mother
>>>>>>would get one hundred shekels if I did
>>
>>this,"
>>
>>>>Husam
>>>>
>>>>>>told his captors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Fatah Tanzim claimed responsibility for
>>>>
>>>>sending
>>>>
>>>>>>the would-be bomber,
>>>>>>Channel One reported Wednesday night.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The boy aroused suspicions when he reached
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>Hawara roadblock. Soldiers
>>>>>>from the Paratroopers 202 Brigade aimed
>>
>>their
>>
>>>>>>weapons at him, and he
>>>>>>panicked.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Seeing that the boy was "unusually swollen"
>>>>
>>>>around
>>>>
>>>>>>the chest area, he was
>>>>>>checked by soldiers at the roadblock, who
>>>>
>>>>ordered
>>>>
>>>>>>him to lift his t-shirt,
>>>>>>where they discovered a large gray suicide
>>
>>bomb
>>
>>>>belt
>>>>
>>>>>>on his chest with a
>>>>>>detonation device attached to it. Soldiers
>>>>>>immediately jumped behind a
>>>>>>concrete barrier and trained their weapons
>>
>>on
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>boy again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The area was shut down and sappers were
>>
>>brought
>>
>>>>in
>>>>
>>>>>>to neutralize the
>>>>>>explosives belt. A remote- controlled robot
>>
>>was
>>
>>>>sent
>>>>
>>>>>>out with a pair of
>>>>>>scissors to the would-be suicide bomber, who
>>
>>was
>>
>>>>>>instructed by sappers to
>>>>>>begin cutting the belt off of his chest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>He cut off part of it and struggled with the
>>>>
>>>>rest.
>>>>
>>>>>>"I don't how to get this
>>>>>>off," he said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>After he dropped the vest, soldiers ordered
>>
>>him
>>
>>>>to
>>>>
>>>>>>take off his undershirt
>>>>>>and jeans, to ensure he had no other weapons
>>
>>on
>>
>>>>him.
>>>>
>>>>>>The belt contained 8kg of explosives, and
>>
>>was
>>
>>>>>>detonated in a controlled
>>>>>>explosion after it was taken off the
>>
>>Palestinian
>>
>>>>>>child.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Lt. Tamir Milrad, an officer at the
>>
>>checkpoint
>>
>>>>said,
>>>>
>>>>>>"We saw that he had
>>>>>>something under his shirt."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"He told us he didn't want to die. He didn't
>>>>
>>>>want to
>>>>
>>>>>>blow up," Milrad added.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Channel Two news reported that the boy
>>
>>received
>>
>>>>100
>>>>
>>>>>>NIS for carrying the
>>>>>>belt and exploding near Israeli targets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Following the incident, IDF erected a
>>
>>blockade
>>
>>>>>>around Nablus. Channel 2
>>>>>>reported that security services have
>>
>>warnings of
>>
>>>>a
>>>>
>>>>>>wave of terror attempts
>>>>>>emanating from Nablus, a hotbed of Fatah
>>
>>Tanzim
>>
>>>>>>activity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The boy's brother, Hussam Abdo, said he was
>>>>
>>>>mentally
>>>>
>>>>>>slow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"He doesn't know anything, and he has
>>>>
>>>>intelligence
>>>>
>>>>>>of a 12 year old," his
>>>>>>brother, Hosni, said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The incident was the latest in a series of
>>>>
>>>>foiled
>>>>
>>>>>>terrorist attacks
>>>>>>involving young Palestinians.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"No matter how many times Israel learns of
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>use
>>>>
>>>>>>of children for suicide
>>>>>>bombings, it is shocking on each occasion,"
>>
>>said
>>
>>>>>>Dore Gold, an adviser to
>>>>>>Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Israelis do not understand how Palestinians
>>
>>are
>>
>>>>>>willing to sacrifice their
>>>>>>own children in order to kill ours."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Last week, Fatah Tanzim terrorists in Nablus
>>>>
>>>>sent an
>>>>
>>>>>>11-year-old boy to
>>>>>>smuggle a bomb through an IDF roadblock on
>>>>
>>>>Monday,
>>>>
>>>>>>and tried to detonate the
>>>>>>bomb when soldiers stopped him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The men gave the boy a bag containing a
>>>>
>>>>seven-to-10
>>>>
>>>>>>kilogram bomb stuffed
>>>>>>with bolts. They promised him a large sum of
>>>>
>>>>money
>>>>
>>>>>>if he would carry it
>>>>>>through the roadblock and hand it to a woman
>>>>
>>>>waiting
>>>>
>>>>>>on the other side.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Since 2001, more than 40 other minors who
>>
>>were
>>
>>>>>>involved in planning suicide
>>>>>>bombings have been arrested by security
>>
>>forces.
>>
>>>>>>Since May 2001, 22 shootings
>>>>>>and bombings were perpetrated by minors.>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=20210
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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