Like Lawrence I found the thread ?good? (perhaps better than good by any reasonable standard). Unlike Lawrence I managed to get farther than the ?Dude? point and thought the contributions indicated what a potentially rich seam this topic mines. Some comments on:- ?understanding cultural evolution in specifically Darwinian terms?. This is problematic for many reasons of course; equally, of course, the problematic character of such an understanding does not itself invalidate it ? even valid approaches to a problem will have their problems and thus be ?problematic?. (Btw, it was delightful to see a reference to the late D.T.Campbell in this regard ? his seminal paper ?Evolutionary Epistemology? can be found in Popper?s Schilpp volume, as can Popper?s reply). There are at least two potential and fundamental misunderstandings that might be mentioned. A. The idea that a ?specifically Darwinian? understanding of cultural evolution must depend on an analogy with the ?survival and reproduction? aspects of Darwinism (such an understanding seems repeatedly at work in the thread). Rather, what is central to organic evolution, and what ties it to human cultural evolution, is not mere ?survival and reproduction? but the ?expansion of knowledge? ? and that, in both cases, such ?knowledge? is a product of (Darwinian) selection not (Lamarckian) instruction. (To see this we need a sense of ?knowledge? as dispositional states, including unconscious states ? a sense where we might allow that a tree, that in a drought [actively] extends its roots in search for water, is showing a ?knowledge? that is lacking in a tree that does not but just [passively] ?hopes? for rain.) ?Survival and reproduction? may be seen as merely minimum requirements for evolution (and even then survival is necessary only insofar as it is a precondition of reproduction - a long-living non-reproducing organism is out of contributing to the ?gene-pool? long before a short-lived reproducing organism; hence it is not anti-Darwinian that some creatures sacrifice their lives in order to reproduce). But these minimum requirements do not explain the richness or proliferation of evolutionary forms: this can only explained in terms of the expansion of adaptive potentialities, and of the (unconscious) knowledge that reflects this. [Though humans now over-populate the world, we do not reproduce at the rate of bacteria ? in fact, we reproduce at a very slow and cost-intensive rate, and our off-spring are born vulnerable for years, so their rearing is cost-intensive: our ?survival and reproduction? are minimally explanatory of this state-of-affairs]. The explanation for the evolution of forms that struggle mightily to survive and struggle to reproduce (to the point of being vulnerable to extinction) can only be partial and lies in the ?logic of the situation? and in the expansion (through genetic mutation and selective retention) of adaptive potentialities and the expansion in ?knowledge? these represent. The same is true for human cultural forms or artefacts. If these disappear entirely ? take a Bach fugue, the only written copy of which is destroyed ? they may make no further contribution to the cultural ?pool?. In this way their ?survival and reproduction? is a minimal requirement for their continuing cultural impact (they may even of course ?survive?, unknown to us, by being encoded ? imagine we discover a manuscript of a hitherto unknown Bach fugue). But this does not mean we can further explain their cultural impact in terms of their ?survival and reproduction?, or even in terms of ?qualities? that we might allege underpin their ?survival and reproduction? (I can hum a trivial pop song much more easily, in the meme-like ?survival and reproduction? way, than I can a Goldberg variation ? but the pop tune and my humming cannot be given a higher ranking for cultural impact and importance merely because of that; anymore than bacteria?s greater ?survival and reproduction? rates means they are of greater evolutionary impact and importance than humans). Consider David Miller?s argument, from his paper ?DARWINISM IS THE APPLICATION OF SITUATIONAL LOGIC TO THE STATE OF IGNORANCE?:- ?In Unended Quest, section 37, we read: 'I do not think that Darwinism can explain the origin of life.? But this does not affect the view of Darwinism as situational logic, once life and its framework are assumed to constitute our "situation". ? Indeed its [Darwinism's] close resemblance to situational logic may account for its great success, in spite of the almost tautological character inherent in the Darwinian formulation.' There is a closely similar passage in Objective Knowledge, Chapter 2, section16 (written after Unended Quest, but published two years before it): 'a considerable part of Darwinism is not of the nature of an empirical theory, but is a logical truism? the method of trial and of the elimination of errors ? can be said not to be an empirical method but to belong to the logic of the situation. This, I think, explains (perhaps a little too briefly) the logical or a priori components in Darwinism.' Several authors have implicitly agreed with Popper that the explanation given here is too brief, but no one I know of has defended the idea that Darwinism is a form of situational logic. The present paper initiates such a defence. To do this, we shall have to jettison the idea that for an action to be appropriate or rational (in the weak sense enshrined in the rationality principle), the agent must have a clear, though perhaps hopelessly cock-eyed, appreciation of the situation in which he finds himself. Likewise we shall have to weaken the commonly held view that the aim of situational logic (or situational analysis) is to specify the agent's situation so minutely that a unique course of action is seen to be prescribed. My suggestion is that the typical agent is in a state neither of total comprehension nor of total bewilderment, but somewhere between the two. The closer he is to understanding his circumstances, however misguidedly, the closer he is to the classical rational ideal. But to the extent that he is perplexed by his predicament, rather than deluded about it, the appropriate way to proceed is by the method of trial and (if he is lucky enough to recognise it) error, by the method of blind variation and selective retention. It is in this sense that Darwinism is the application of situational logic to the state of ignorance. This view of Darwinism allows us to deal with those objections to the evolutionary approach to the theory of knowledge that dispute the appositeness to distinctively human activities, especially science, art, and morality, of crude concerns with survival and reproduction. For we badly misread the theory of evolution if we restrict its compass to survival and reproduction. It is the growth of knowledge (through active problem solving) that is at the heart of evolutionary development. There is accordingly nothing to stop us from giving evolutionary explanations, that is, explanations using situational analysis, of our most dignified intellectual achievements.? B. That ?evolutionary epistemology? is a philosophically united front and that all so-called ?Darwinists? sing from the same or similar hymn-sheet: in fact there are radical differences between soi-disant ?Darwinists? and these are capable of misleading (think Gould vs. Dawkins). We might place Popper and D.T.Campbell in one camp (whatever their differences, they place themselves in the same camp for the purposes of the contrast drawn below); but there are many in another camp which also styles itself as a ?Darwinian evolutionary epistemology?. Consider the following from Peter Munz on ?POPPER?S DARWINISM?:- ?The term ?Darwinism? is used nowadays (when social Darwinism has disappeared below the horizon) for at least two totally different paradigms of thought. There is Popper?s Darwinism on one side; and the Darwinism of evolutionary psychology and evolutionary epistemology, on the other. These two paradigms have not only nothing to do with each other but are also diametrically opposed to each other. The second paradigm is an ill-informed attempt to rehabilitate some kind of induction as a justification of knowledge by maintaining that knowledge is the end product of observations and/or experiences. This Darwinism was started by Konrad Lorenz and, in a different form, is enjoying a heyday in the voluminous, widely acclaimed writings of Tooby and Cosmides. Darwin had dismissed Locke?s tabula rasa mind and radical empiricism out of hand. But given the concept of adaptation, Lorenz and his many followers began to argue that our sense organs , having been selected must be adapted, i.e., are trustworthy sources of knowledge. This argument has been taken to salvage Locke or, as one might say, Darwinise Locke. True, our mind is not a tabula rasa, but it has evolved, thanks to natural selection, complete with the ability to pick up correct information. As Lorenz put it, our knowledge is phylogenetically a posteriori; but ontogenetically a priori. In other words: our sense organs (Lorenz) or our mental modules (Tooby and Cosmides), being the products of natural selection , are adapted to get things right. While this argument has proved valid for the kind of information paramecia and mallard ducklings come into the world with, it is hopelessly ill-informed when applied to humans. Neuroscience has shown that the human brain is not a single organ capable, with a few exceptions, to respond unequivocally to stimuli. It registers colour, position, size, time, location, shape etc of all inputs separately and thus creates a binding problem which has to be solved before a single representation can emerge. As Popper, anticipating this neuroscientific evidence, put it, we cannot learn by simply staring at the world (Logic of Scientific Discovery, V, 30). We first need a theory which has to be exposed to falsification even as biological organisms are proposals made to the environment and then exposed to natural selection. Popper?s Darwinism is therefore diametrically opposed to the Darwinism of both evolutionary epistemology and evolutionary psychology. Instead of Darwinising Locke, Popper took from Darwin the general idea that in biological evolution there is chance mutation and selective retention and applied it to the evolution of knowledge. His epoch making alternative to conventional positivism consisted in the fact that he saw a complete continuity from the amoeba to Einstein. It can be documented that Popper?s ?Darwinism?, unlike the other type, was initially developed without reference to or reliance on Darwin.? TTFN Donal ___________________________________________________________ Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" ? The Wall Street Journal http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html