[lit-ideas] Turtaios and Kipling
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:54:01 -0800
Thanks for posting that, JL -- brings tears to my eyes and reminds me of boot
camp. But we were told not to expect to civilians to understand us, and this
lack of understanding is not a new thing:
TOMMY
by Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
Lawrence
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 7:15 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Turtaios, "Out'án mensaímen oút'en en lógo ándra titheín"
" οὔτ' ἂν μνησαίμην οὔτ' ἐν λόγῳ ἄνδρα τιθείην"
Here the Spartan creed at: http://www.gottwein.de/Grie/lyr/lyr_tyrt_gr.php --
Should work a bit on the Greek text below. The tr. by R. Lattimore
http://www.yachigusaryu.com/blog/2007/01/martial-art-versus-combat-sport-in.html
(incomplete) -- and
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:i1Dg6uSe6msJ:www.brown.edu/Courses/CL0070/Lyric_Reforms.doc+%22I+would+not+say+anything+for+a+man%22+Lattimore
<http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:i1Dg6uSe6msJ:www.brown.edu/Courses/CL0070/Lyric_Reforms.doc+%22I+would+not+say+anything+for+a+man%22+Lattimore&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&ie=UTF-8>
&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&ie=UTF-8 (complete)
---- It all looks a kind of "British matron" apology to me, and cannot forget
Siegfried Sassoon, a pacifist during Great War (he fought too) as he recalls
how that gilded youth of a generation marched in Somme reciting their Turtaios.
And what's worse (this is dealt with by V. Redgrave in Mrs Dalloway, filmed
version, played by Rupert Graves) the guilt of those who _survived_. "To die
young" as R. Brooke, even if not _too young_ and by the bite of the mosquito,
was the only thing a British matron could swallow. Where is she!?
-- I make a point about it being the "Great War" -- Up to
then, there's nothing tragic about having your Etonian memorise
this nice piece by Turtaios, and even after...
I would not say anything for a man nor take account of him
For any speed of his feet or wrestling skill he might have
not if he had the size of a Cyclops and strength to go with it
Not if he could outrun Boreas, the North Wind of Thrace
not if he were more handsome and gracefully formed than Tithonos,
or had more riches than Midas had, or Kinyras too,
not if he were more a king than Tantalid Pelops,
Or had the power of speech and persuasion Adrastos had,
not if he had all splendors except for a fighting spirit.
For no man ever proves himself a good man in war
unless he can endure to face the blood and the slaughter,
go close against the enemy and fight with his hands."
Here is courage, mankind’s finest possession, here is
the noblest prize that a young man can endeavor to win,
and it is a good thing his city and all the people share with him 15
when a man plants his feet and stands in the foremost spears
relentlessly, all thought of foul flight completely forgotten,
and has well trained his heart to be steadfast and to endure,
and with words encourages the man who is stationed beside him.
Here is a man who proves himself to be valiant in war. 20
With a sudden rush he turns to flight the rugged battalions
of the enemy, and sustains the beating waves of assault.
And he who so falls among the champions and loses his sweet life,
so blessing with honor his city, his father, and all his people,
with wounds in his chest, where the spear that he was facing has transfixed
25
that massive guard of his shield, and gone through his breastplate as well,
why, such a man is lamented alike by the young and the elders,
and all his city goes into mourning and grieves for his loss.
His tomb is pointed to with pride, and so are his children,
and his children’s children, and afterward all the race that is his. 30
His shining glory is never forgotten, his name is remembered,
and he becomes an immortal, though he lies under the ground,
when one who was a brave man has been killed by the furious War God
standing his ground and fighting hard for his children and land.
But if he escapes the doom of death, the destroyer of bodies, 35
and wins his battle, and bright renown for the work of his spear,
all men give place to him alike, the youth and the elders,
and much joy comes his way before he goes down to the dead.
Aging, he has reputation among his citizens. No one
tries to interfere with his honors or all he deserves; 40
all men withdraw before his presence, and yield their seats to him,
the youth, and the men his age, and even those older than he.
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage
with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war."
J. L. Speranza
Buenos Aires, Argentina
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