[lit-ideas] Re: Traditionalist Islam

  • From: Omar Kusturica <omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:00:20 -0800 (PST)

However the term "moderate Muslims" is Western
coinage. (Similarly the Miloshevic supporters in
Serbia used to refer to 'honest Albanians'.) Moderate
Muslims in the ME probably do not normally identify
themselves as such, but simply as Muslims. The term
also confuses religious moderation with political
moderation.

One reason I usually ignore Lawrence's demands to hear
from 'moderate Muslims' is that I don't know what
would qualify in his eyes as such. 

O.K.



--- JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx wrote:

> If you had looked around on the second website, or
> read the content of the  
> first, or looked past the first line of the third,
> you would find that all 
> three  discuss moderate Muslims IN the Middle East.
>  
> I didn't really have the inclination to pick out the
> "in the ME only"  
> sentences/paragraphs, as I tend to believe context
> is important.  
>  
> I understand, however, why you don't have time to
> read such lengthy  pieces.  
> I'll try to pare them down for you.
>  
> Julie Krueger
> 
> ========Original  Message========     Subj:
> [lit-ideas] Re: Traditionalist 
> Islam  Date: 2/26/2007 11:46:33 A.M. Central
> Standard Time  From: 
> _lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> (mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx)   To: 
> _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)   Sent on:    
> Notice what you quoted:  "I wasn't hearing  from any
> in the Middle East."  
> You give me three web sites but none of them  are in
> the Middle East.  Yes, I 
> know there are moderates outside of the  Middle
> East.  If they become Moderate 
> they have to move out.  They go  to the Brookings
> Institute in Washington DC 
> (your first web site).  They  became an assistant
> professor in a college in 
> Michigan (your second web site),  or they become
> involved with the American 
> Islamic Forum for Democracy (your  third web site). 
> They do not stay in the Middle 
> East and write from  there.
> 
> Lawrence 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 09:20 AM 2/26/2007, you wrote:
> 
> _http://www.ijtihad.org/moderatemuslims.htm_ 
> (http://www.ijtihad.org/moderatemuslims.htm) 
> 
> _The Legacy of Muhammad and the issues  of
> Pedophilia and Polygamy_ 
> (http://www.ijtihad.org/women2.htm)  
> 
> These are two interesting  articles from a Moderate
> Muslim perspective.  
> 
> And here's a  website you might take a look at:
> 
> _http://www.aifdemocracy.org/about/principles.php_ 
> (http://www.aifdemocracy.org/about/principles.php) 
> 
> Julie  Krueger
> 
> ======== Original Message======== 
> Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: Traditionalist  Islam
> Date: 2/25/2007 4:35:00 P.M. Central Standard Time
> From: _lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> (mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx)  
> To:  _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) 
> Sent  on:    
> 
> When I click on your reference I get Issue # 132 
> and don't see anything in 
> it by Fukuyama.
> 
> The route you say I've chosen  is the one I've been
> on all along.  I started 
> out believing all I was  hearing about the
> Traditional Muslims but one day 
> realized that I wasn't  hearing from any in the
> Middle East; so right here on 
> this very Lit-Ideas I  challenged Omar to produce
> some "moderate" aka traditional 
> Muslims from he  Middle East, and he couldn't, or
> didn't have the time to 
> look.  So I said  that I wasn't going to believe
> they existed until some were 
> produced.  My  stance hasn't changed.  I said that
> deep down I think they do 
> probably  exist, but did you read the rest of what I
> said, Simon?  In practical  
> terms their existence is moot because they take no
> observable actions based  
> upon their beliefs.  They don't write.  They don't
> speak out  politically.  In 
> practical terms they may as well not exist.   
> 
> [Simon] I say back to you that the present actions
> of the west (by the  US 
> and the UK for example), which for the most part are
> nothing but  verification 
> of what the fundamentalists are saying the west
> would do,  preclude that 
> possibility. More importantly, these actions serve
> to push more  and more 
> traditionalists towards the fundamentalist camp.  
> 
> [Simon] Now I know this is something you disagree
> with. You (and  Eric) think 
> that fundamentalist Islam is a product exclusively
> derived from  Muslim 
> culture and a too tight reading of the Koran. You
> (and Eric) say that  the movement 
> of muslims from the traditional fold to the
> fundamentalist is  something the 
> west cannot influence. At least that's what you say
> over  here...
> 
> You haven't said enough for me to "disagree" or
> agree  with.  What "actions 
> of the west" do you have in mind?  And how does 
> "verification of what the 
> fundamentalists are saying" preclude the possibility
>  of the semi-mythical tradit
> ionalists reaching out to us assuming they knew we 
> (Conservatives) existed -- 
> and D'Souza says they don't know we exist.   D'Souza
> says it is the actions of 
> the Cultural Left that antagonize the  Traditional
> Muslims.  They believe 
> that we are all irreligious,  pro-abortion,
> pro-homosexual marriage, pro-sleeping 
> around and a host of other  things that appall them.
>  They do not hold our 
> taking out the Taliban and  Saddam Hussein against
> us.  They do not mind that we 
> are fighting Al  Quaeda and the Baathists in Iraq. 
> But they hate what we are 
> (read what  the Cultural Left is).  D'Souza says we
> should be more vocal, and 
> become  visible to the Traditional Muslims.  Once
> they know we exist and 
> share  Non-Leftist Cultural views with them we can
> take a common stance against  
> Radical Islam (not to mention the Cultural Left)
> 
> Lawrence
> 
> 
> At  01:04 PM 2/25/2007, you wrote:
> 
> Well Lawrence, I'm pleased that  you've chosen the
> interesting route.
> 
> I'd like to start with a  quote from you on
> Lit-Ideas, from the last post:
> 
> "...let me say  for the record that I believe the
> Traditionalists do  exist."
> 
> Now, just in case you have some intent to catch me
> out,  I hope we can agree 
> that the 'traditionalists' you are referring to to
> are  the 'moderates' that 
> we have discussed previously. We can? I'll assume
> that  to be the case.
> 
> In which case, I'd like to go back to something 
> I've been saying repeatedly: 
> that the war being fought by the US and the  west
> (sometimes called the War 
> Against Terror, other times otherthings), at  its
> heart, is a battle for the 
> hearts and minds of the tradional muslim, for  the
> moderate. You say that their 
> invisibility (in the middle east) means  that we are
> unable to reach out for 
> them, but that they should reach out for  us. 
> 
> I say back to you that the present actions of the
> west (by  the US and the UK 
> for example), which for the most part are nothing
> but  verification of what 
> the fundamentlists are saying the west would do, 
> preclude that possibility. 
> More importantly, these actions serve to push  more
> and more traditionalists 
> towards the fundamentalist camp.  
> 
> Now I know this is something you disgree with. You
> (and Eric)  think that 
> fundamentalist Islam is a product exclusively
> derived from muslim  culture and a 
> too tight reading of the Koran. You (and Eric) say
> that the  movement of 
> muslims from the traditional fold to the
> fundamentalist is  something the west 
> cannot influence. At least that's what you say over 
> here...
> 
> [conflation...]
> 
> A few days ago I included  a link to an article by
> Fukuyama:
> 
>
_http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/list.php?category=138&issue=549_
> 
>
(http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/list.php?category=138&issue=549)
>   
> 
> I believe it's important and relates to the current 
> discussion. Perhaps you 
> could read it and  comment.
> 
> Simon
> 
> ----- Original Message -----  
> From: _Lawrence Helm_
> (mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx)   
> To: _Lit-Ideas_ (mailto:Lit-Ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)   
> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 8:28 PM  
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Simon's peculiar responses
> 
> 
> Simon writes:
> 
> There are, I've decided, two different Lawrences:
> one here and one in  
> 'another place'. Here, our Lawrence is unequivocal,
> the war is against  Islam 
> because the moderates (or traditionalists) are 'semi
> mythical'. Over  there, their 
> Lawrence appears to be nuanced and the moderates (or
>  traditionalists) are the 
> ones that should be approached by western  scholars
> with a view to steering 
> them away from the fundamentalists. 
> 
> 
> Now this is interesting to say the least. Perhaps
> it's because  Lawrence is a 
> hypocrite, or perhaps it's also because he's writing
> for a  different 
> audience. Is it because in both places he's after an
>  argument?
> 
> 
> And what does that make him?
> 
> 
> Of course, he might just attempt to reconcile these
> two different  psyches. 
> And that would be really interesting...
> 
> 
> 
> Lawrence reluctantly responds:
> 
> It goes without saying that you are once again
> confused, Simon.   
> 
> By "another place" I assume you mean Theoria where I
> discussed the  book The 
> Enemy at Home, The Cultural Left and Its
> Responsibility for 9/11  by Dinesh 
> D'Souza.  I might have discussed that book over here
> on  Lit-Ideas but I didn't 
> because I had been declared SPAM for awhile.   Some
> of my comments about this 
> book had to do with D'Souza's thesis that  it was
> better to fight against just 
> the Islamic Radicals than all of  Islam.  The
> Right-Wing reviews I read of 
> this book were uniformly  negative.  They objected
> to D'Souza's putting himself 
> in the shoes of  the "Traditionalist" and looking
> for points of agreement.  He 
> argues  the American Conservatives should seek out
> these traditionalists and 
> make  common cause with them -- just as the Left and
> the Radical Muslims are  
> making common cause.   My problem with the reviews
> is that none  of them I 
> read seemed to think it would be a good thing if we
> could avoid  fighting all of 
> Islam by making common cause with the 
> traditionalists.  If they exist, and 
> D'Souza believes they do, then  it would be good if
> we could reach some sort of 
> common-cause agreement  involving opposition to the
> radicals (and the Left).  
> My point here,  and once again a smidgeon of
> understanding of Logic would help 
> you, Simon,  is conditional.  If the traditionalists
> exist then it would be a 
> good  thing if they and American conservatives could
> reach a rapprochement 
> like  D'Souza suggest.  I do not have to believe or
> disbelieve that they  exist 
> to make that conditional statement.   
> But in one of my Theoria notes (one that you
> apparently missed), I  stated 
> that I continued to believe the Traditionalists to
> be invisible and  that since 
> we couldn't find them to reach out to, perhaps it
> would behoove  them, if they 
> existed, to reach out to us.  
> 
> Lest that is too elusive for you, Simon, let me say
> for the record  that I 
> believe the Traditionalists do exist.  I make
> disparaging  comments about them, 
> calling them invisible and semi-mythical, because 
> they are not outspoken.  
> They are not a present-day force in the  Middle
> East.  They keep silent.  If you 
> called someone like that  to be a witness over here
> in the U.S.in, say, a 
> drive-by shooting, he  would say, "I don't want to
> get involved."  Some Muslims 
> are  courageous and they seem to have gravitated to
> the Radicals.  They  like 
> to blow things up.  The uncourageous, the ones who
> would go to  Canada if they 
> lived over here, tend to keep their mouths  shut.  
> D'Souza has a different 
> view of them and I suspended  disbelief as I read
> his book (something his 
> reviewers failed to do), but I  still wait to hear
> from them.  Where are they 
> Dinesh?  And don't  point to Iranians living in Los
> Angeles or Arab Doctors working 
> at Loma  Linda Hospital.  Where are they in the
> Middle East?  
> 
> Lawrence 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
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