However the term "moderate Muslims" is Western coinage. (Similarly the Miloshevic supporters in Serbia used to refer to 'honest Albanians'.) Moderate Muslims in the ME probably do not normally identify themselves as such, but simply as Muslims. The term also confuses religious moderation with political moderation. One reason I usually ignore Lawrence's demands to hear from 'moderate Muslims' is that I don't know what would qualify in his eyes as such. O.K. --- JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx wrote: > If you had looked around on the second website, or > read the content of the > first, or looked past the first line of the third, > you would find that all > three discuss moderate Muslims IN the Middle East. > > I didn't really have the inclination to pick out the > "in the ME only" > sentences/paragraphs, as I tend to believe context > is important. > > I understand, however, why you don't have time to > read such lengthy pieces. > I'll try to pare them down for you. > > Julie Krueger > > ========Original Message======== Subj: > [lit-ideas] Re: Traditionalist > Islam Date: 2/26/2007 11:46:33 A.M. Central > Standard Time From: > _lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > (mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx) To: > _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) Sent on: > Notice what you quoted: "I wasn't hearing from any > in the Middle East." > You give me three web sites but none of them are in > the Middle East. Yes, I > know there are moderates outside of the Middle > East. If they become Moderate > they have to move out. They go to the Brookings > Institute in Washington DC > (your first web site). They became an assistant > professor in a college in > Michigan (your second web site), or they become > involved with the American > Islamic Forum for Democracy (your third web site). > They do not stay in the Middle > East and write from there. > > Lawrence > > > > > At 09:20 AM 2/26/2007, you wrote: > > _http://www.ijtihad.org/moderatemuslims.htm_ > (http://www.ijtihad.org/moderatemuslims.htm) > > _The Legacy of Muhammad and the issues of > Pedophilia and Polygamy_ > (http://www.ijtihad.org/women2.htm) > > These are two interesting articles from a Moderate > Muslim perspective. > > And here's a website you might take a look at: > > _http://www.aifdemocracy.org/about/principles.php_ > (http://www.aifdemocracy.org/about/principles.php) > > Julie Krueger > > ======== Original Message======== > Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: Traditionalist Islam > Date: 2/25/2007 4:35:00 P.M. Central Standard Time > From: _lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > (mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx) > To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) > Sent on: > > When I click on your reference I get Issue # 132 > and don't see anything in > it by Fukuyama. > > The route you say I've chosen is the one I've been > on all along. I started > out believing all I was hearing about the > Traditional Muslims but one day > realized that I wasn't hearing from any in the > Middle East; so right here on > this very Lit-Ideas I challenged Omar to produce > some "moderate" aka traditional > Muslims from he Middle East, and he couldn't, or > didn't have the time to > look. So I said that I wasn't going to believe > they existed until some were > produced. My stance hasn't changed. I said that > deep down I think they do > probably exist, but did you read the rest of what I > said, Simon? In practical > terms their existence is moot because they take no > observable actions based > upon their beliefs. They don't write. They don't > speak out politically. In > practical terms they may as well not exist. > > [Simon] I say back to you that the present actions > of the west (by the US > and the UK for example), which for the most part are > nothing but verification > of what the fundamentalists are saying the west > would do, preclude that > possibility. More importantly, these actions serve > to push more and more > traditionalists towards the fundamentalist camp. > > [Simon] Now I know this is something you disagree > with. You (and Eric) think > that fundamentalist Islam is a product exclusively > derived from Muslim > culture and a too tight reading of the Koran. You > (and Eric) say that the movement > of muslims from the traditional fold to the > fundamentalist is something the > west cannot influence. At least that's what you say > over here... > > You haven't said enough for me to "disagree" or > agree with. What "actions > of the west" do you have in mind? And how does > "verification of what the > fundamentalists are saying" preclude the possibility > of the semi-mythical tradit > ionalists reaching out to us assuming they knew we > (Conservatives) existed -- > and D'Souza says they don't know we exist. D'Souza > says it is the actions of > the Cultural Left that antagonize the Traditional > Muslims. They believe > that we are all irreligious, pro-abortion, > pro-homosexual marriage, pro-sleeping > around and a host of other things that appall them. > They do not hold our > taking out the Taliban and Saddam Hussein against > us. They do not mind that we > are fighting Al Quaeda and the Baathists in Iraq. > But they hate what we are > (read what the Cultural Left is). D'Souza says we > should be more vocal, and > become visible to the Traditional Muslims. Once > they know we exist and > share Non-Leftist Cultural views with them we can > take a common stance against > Radical Islam (not to mention the Cultural Left) > > Lawrence > > > At 01:04 PM 2/25/2007, you wrote: > > Well Lawrence, I'm pleased that you've chosen the > interesting route. > > I'd like to start with a quote from you on > Lit-Ideas, from the last post: > > "...let me say for the record that I believe the > Traditionalists do exist." > > Now, just in case you have some intent to catch me > out, I hope we can agree > that the 'traditionalists' you are referring to to > are the 'moderates' that > we have discussed previously. We can? I'll assume > that to be the case. > > In which case, I'd like to go back to something > I've been saying repeatedly: > that the war being fought by the US and the west > (sometimes called the War > Against Terror, other times otherthings), at its > heart, is a battle for the > hearts and minds of the tradional muslim, for the > moderate. You say that their > invisibility (in the middle east) means that we are > unable to reach out for > them, but that they should reach out for us. > > I say back to you that the present actions of the > west (by the US and the UK > for example), which for the most part are nothing > but verification of what > the fundamentlists are saying the west would do, > preclude that possibility. > More importantly, these actions serve to push more > and more traditionalists > towards the fundamentalist camp. > > Now I know this is something you disgree with. You > (and Eric) think that > fundamentalist Islam is a product exclusively > derived from muslim culture and a > too tight reading of the Koran. You (and Eric) say > that the movement of > muslims from the traditional fold to the > fundamentalist is something the west > cannot influence. At least that's what you say over > here... > > [conflation...] > > A few days ago I included a link to an article by > Fukuyama: > > _http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/list.php?category=138&issue=549_ > > (http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/list.php?category=138&issue=549) > > > I believe it's important and relates to the current > discussion. Perhaps you > could read it and comment. > > Simon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: _Lawrence Helm_ > (mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx) > To: _Lit-Ideas_ (mailto:Lit-Ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) > Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 8:28 PM > Subject: [lit-ideas] Simon's peculiar responses > > > Simon writes: > > There are, I've decided, two different Lawrences: > one here and one in > 'another place'. Here, our Lawrence is unequivocal, > the war is against Islam > because the moderates (or traditionalists) are 'semi > mythical'. Over there, their > Lawrence appears to be nuanced and the moderates (or > traditionalists) are the > ones that should be approached by western scholars > with a view to steering > them away from the fundamentalists. > > > Now this is interesting to say the least. Perhaps > it's because Lawrence is a > hypocrite, or perhaps it's also because he's writing > for a different > audience. Is it because in both places he's after an > argument? > > > And what does that make him? > > > Of course, he might just attempt to reconcile these > two different psyches. > And that would be really interesting... > > > > Lawrence reluctantly responds: > > It goes without saying that you are once again > confused, Simon. > > By "another place" I assume you mean Theoria where I > discussed the book The > Enemy at Home, The Cultural Left and Its > Responsibility for 9/11 by Dinesh > D'Souza. I might have discussed that book over here > on Lit-Ideas but I didn't > because I had been declared SPAM for awhile. Some > of my comments about this > book had to do with D'Souza's thesis that it was > better to fight against just > the Islamic Radicals than all of Islam. The > Right-Wing reviews I read of > this book were uniformly negative. They objected > to D'Souza's putting himself > in the shoes of the "Traditionalist" and looking > for points of agreement. He > argues the American Conservatives should seek out > these traditionalists and > make common cause with them -- just as the Left and > the Radical Muslims are > making common cause. My problem with the reviews > is that none of them I > read seemed to think it would be a good thing if we > could avoid fighting all of > Islam by making common cause with the > traditionalists. If they exist, and > D'Souza believes they do, then it would be good if > we could reach some sort of > common-cause agreement involving opposition to the > radicals (and the Left). > My point here, and once again a smidgeon of > understanding of Logic would help > you, Simon, is conditional. If the traditionalists > exist then it would be a > good thing if they and American conservatives could > reach a rapprochement > like D'Souza suggest. I do not have to believe or > disbelieve that they exist > to make that conditional statement. > But in one of my Theoria notes (one that you > apparently missed), I stated > that I continued to believe the Traditionalists to > be invisible and that since > we couldn't find them to reach out to, perhaps it > would behoove them, if they > existed, to reach out to us. > > Lest that is too elusive for you, Simon, let me say > for the record that I > believe the Traditionalists do exist. I make > disparaging comments about them, > calling them invisible and semi-mythical, because > they are not outspoken. > They are not a present-day force in the Middle > East. They keep silent. If you > called someone like that to be a witness over here > in the U.S.in, say, a > drive-by shooting, he would say, "I don't want to > get involved." Some Muslims > are courageous and they seem to have gravitated to > the Radicals. They like > to blow things up. The uncourageous, the ones who > would go to Canada if they > lived over here, tend to keep their mouths shut. > D'Souza has a different > view of them and I suspended disbelief as I read > his book (something his > reviewers failed to do), but I still wait to hear > from them. Where are they > Dinesh? And don't point to Iranians living in Los > Angeles or Arab Doctors working > at Loma Linda Hospital. Where are they in the > Middle East? > > Lawrence > > > > > > > ____________________________________ > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more > about what's free from > AOL at _AOL.com_ > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/1615326657x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com) > > . > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> > AOL now offers free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free > from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html