Ed,
In regard to llamas, I think we Westerners aren't as good with them as
the Incans were. Here is Wikipedia:
/"Llamas, which are well-socialized and trained to halter and lead after
//weaning <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaning>//, are very friendly
and pleasant to be around. They are extremely curious and most will
approach people easily. However, //llamas that are bottle-fed
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserk_llama_syndrome>//or
over-socialized and over-handled as youth will become extremely
difficult to handle when mature, when they will begin to treat humans as
they treat each other, which is characterized by bouts of spitting,
kicking and neck wrestling.//^[citation needed
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>] /
//
/"When correctly reared, llamas spitting at a human is a rare thing.
Llamas are very social herd animals, however, and do sometimes spit at
each other as a way of disciplining lower-ranked llamas in the herd. A
llama's social rank in a herd is never static. They can always move up
or down in the social ladder by picking small fights. This is usually
done between males to see which will become dominant. Their fights are
visually dramatic, with spitting, ramming each other with their chests,
neck wrestling and kicking, mainly to knock the other off balance. The
females are usually only seen spitting as a means of controlling other
herd members./
//
/"While the social structure might always be changing, they live as a
family and they do take care of each other. If one notices a strange
noise or feels threatened, a warning bray is sent out and all others
become alert. They will often hum to each other as a form of communication./
//
/"The sound of the llama making groaning noises or going "mwa" is often
a sign of fear or anger. If a llama is agitated, it will lay its ears
back. One may determine how agitated the llama is by the materials in
the spit. The more irritated the llama is, the further back into each of
the three stomach compartments it will try to draw materials from for
its spit. . . ."
/
//////
/"Using llamas as livestock guards in North America began in the early
1980s, and some sheep producers have used llamas successfully since
then.//^[26] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llama#cite_note-26> //^[27]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llama#cite_note-Geo-27> //They are used
most commonly in the western regions of the //United States
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States>//, where larger predators,
such as coyotes and feral dogs, are prevalent. Typically, a single
gelding (castrated male) is used./
//
/"Research suggests the use of multiple guard llamas is not as effective
as one. Multiple males tend to bond with one another, rather than with
the livestock, and may ignore the flock. A gelded male of two years of
age bonds closely with its new charges and is instinctively very
effective in preventing predation. Some llamas appear to bond more
quickly to sheep or goats if they are introduced just prior to //lambing
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambing>//. Many sheep and goat producers
indicate a special bond quickly develops between lambs and their guard
llama and the llama is particularly protective of the lambs./
/"Using llamas as guards has reduced the losses to predators for many
producers. The value of the livestock saved each year more than exceeds
the purchase cost and annual maintenance of a llama. Although not every
llama is suited to the job, most are a viable, nonlethal alternative for
reducing predation, requiring no training and little care.//"//
/My "plan" in this regard would be to get a single male as a "cria",
train him to halter, have him gelded at age 2 and use him as a pack
animal and secondarily as a guard for whatever animals I have in the
back yard. I suspect that if he goes on regular hikes with us he'll be
friendly enough. My son's ex-wife got a llama (as well as a bunch of
other animals) when they lived in Apple Valley and he behaved similar to
the way your friend's llama did, but llamas live a long time compared to
dogs and if you get one as an adult you don't know what his history is.
My alternative would be to get a "guardian-type" dog. There is a
breeder in Missoula who raises Kangal (aka Anatolian Shepherd) dogs.
But if I got one of these I'd want him to spend time in the house as
well as outside and have him go on hikes with us. One hears reports of
bad behavior from these as well but if I got one as a pup he should be okay.
I'll be going up there initially with just the dogs I will have: Ben
(129 pound Rhodesian Ridgeback), Duffy (23.5 pound Schnoodle -- was
previously Susan's lap dog), and Jessica (an Irish Terrier arriving by
air freight the first week in June). I bought Jessica one week before
deciding to move. I had always wanted one of these (Susan did not); so
Jessica will have been my first possibly-emotional decision made not
quite a year after Susan's loss. Jessica will be one to worry about
once I get up there. Irish Terriers are fearless and are known for going
after predators far larger than they are. They aren't as cautions as
Rhodesian Ridgebacks (or schnoodles).
Yeah, if you want to make the trip Sandpoint sometime you'll be
welcome. I plan to get a place with a house large enough for visiting
relatives and guests. I should have enough money to accomplish my plans
as long as I'm not too extravagant and as long as property values don't
change too much between now and then (estimated month of move is April
2017 due to my son -- who plans to take charge of my move -- not being
able to be ready until then).
As Bobby Burns wrote, "the best laid plans of mice and men gang aft
aglee." And as the stoics wrote "desire" is the root of all our evils.
Believing both, more or less, I am trying not to be overly confident
about the move or desire it too much in case something were to happen
forcing me to remain in San Jacinto. Susan picked this house out in 1998
and got me an excellent study with a nice view of the mountains. I
subsequently planted several trees frequented by all sorts of birds
which I can also see out my study windows. I took some photos out one
a few months back of a hawk ripping something apart and eating it --
looking as malevolent the while as I've seen anything look -- made me
think of Ted Hughes and suspect him once again of bad behavior -- not
like your llama (and my hawk) -- also he never had wild life in England
to approach what we have here in the west -- and if he desired it as
much as he seemed to, why did he remain in civilized and places making
his wives (none of whom were as wild as wolves, coyotes and even llamas
here in the West) miserable?
Lawrence
/
//
/
On 5/15/2016 10:27 PM, Ed Farrell wrote:
Sandpoint, that's way up in the north. Great country, if I remember it right.
Cold, though but Lake Pend Oreille may moderate that some. Llamas are great
guard dogs and they aren't friendly. A close friend uses a llama to protect her
pygmy goats from coyotes. He's complacent enough when you approach him with
food in your hand, but otherwise his general suspicion moves in easy stages to
hostility and even her horses give him a wide berth.
Compared to San Jacinto, it's not all that far from Bellingham, either.
Ed Farrell
Very early morning in St. Petersburg
Sent from my iPad
On May 16, 2016, at 2:05 AM, Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I wouldn't want it thought that I am moving to Sandpoint Idaho just so I can
acquire chickens and compete with David Ritchie. This is only a plan and not
quite a sure thing -- the move I mean not the chicken acquiring because if
things do go according to plan a chicken coop will definitely go up on my
property. Furthermore, I was responsible for getting eggs away from a fierce
Rhode Island Red Rooster before David Ritchie was born.
I was warned to wait a year after losing Susan before moving to demonstrate
that I was not moving for emotional reasons. I'm not sure how that works, but
I never wanted to stay in California after I retired and only did so because
Susan didn't want to leave her parents (who lived in Indio). Sandpoint, if I
am going to move and I certainly hope to, is fixed by two daughters, a
grandson, two grand-daughters and four great grand-children living there. I've
been pouring over real estate descriptions of properties and have noticed that
if I am willing to locate a little further away, in Sandpointean terms, I can
afford five to ten acres near a National Forest.
I've learned that people with five to ten acres in the Sandpoint region control
their weeds with llamas and goats. I like the idea of getting a llama. Not
only will a llama protect my chickens but I can load one up as a pack animal
for hikes. They will carry 20 pounds per 100 pounds of body weight; so a 300
to 400 pound llama should be able to carry as much as I would want to take on a
hike. Depending upon how agreeable the llama was, we might do some
overnighters in the forest. On the other hand, if the coyotes and wolves
(wolves are protected in Idaho) have their eye on my chickens they might take
advantage of our absence and hop our fence. I may have to stick to day hikes
or build a wolf-proof chicken pen.
As a kid it was my job to go into the chicken coop each morning for eggs.
Neither my mother, grandmother, nor sister were willing because the rooster
would go after their legs, but I wore Levi's and the rooster couldn't hurt me.
I wonder now to what extent that rooster influenced me. I had (or developed) a
reputation as a risk-taker, didn't mind diving where there were sharks and
don't mind hiking amidst coyotes. I do not plan to be deterred by the wolves,
but any risk will be reduced by my llama, Rhodesian Ridgeback and a couple of
other dogs. I gave some thought to acquiring another Rhode Island Red rooster
for that purpose, but he'd probably just ride up on my llama and watch. They
aren't all that helpful as I recall.
Lawrence
