Mike wrote: This all started with Lawrence saying he didn't like Berryman's poetry nearly as much as he used to after reading Berryman's biography. That's absurd, I said. Berryman's life should have absolutely nothing to do with whether you like his poetry or not. A poem is NOT the poet." Lawrence responds -- again -- When I suspected that you misunderstood me, Mike, I wrote (10-10 @ 1013PM): However, I didn't mean to imply that my opinion of Berryman's poetry was affected by my poor opinion of him, if that's what you were thinking. What I meant to convey was that Berryman gave up his life, in a manner of speaking, for his poetry and when I first read it I thought it was marvelous -- in other words I tended to think it was (arguably) worthwhile to give up a life for such a body of great poetry. When I reread it years later it didn't have the same effect on me. When I first read it I thought Berryman would go down as a major poet. Now I think perhaps not; which, if I am right in my current opinion of him, means he gave up his life for something of minor value, so to speak. So that's one thing I thought." Didn't you read that, Mike? Since you repeat your mistaken assumption to Eric, after I corrected your misunderstanding, I am tempted to be a little hard on you; however I won't. I'll assume that my note wasn't posted to your inbox. I have missed a number of notes in that way. I read my first biography of Berryman in February of 1992 (The Life of John Berryman by John Haffenden); so I already knew about Berryman's life and couldn't have been having a revelation about it in October of 2005. My change in opinion about his poetry was based upon rereading Dream Songs. Actually, I think you, Mike (if I understand Eric) are more caught up in formula than I am and if this is the current "in way to write and read," more caught up than is consistent with independent thinking. At one time Newton caused Poets to think the world was orderly and so we had Alexander Pope et al and their Classicism. The world is something that can be controlled. "Racine, Moliere, Congreve and Swift ask us to be interested in what they have made;" so in that day, if you wrote poetry, that's the sort of thing you strove after. And if you, Mike, were writing in Pope's day you would be arguing that Pope's way was the proper way to right. But then there was a Romantic reaction. The Classicists asked you to be interested in what they had made but "Chateaubriand, Musset, Byron and Wordsworth ask us to be interested in" them. [I am quoting from Edmund Wilson's Axel's Castle, by the way]. In 1859 Darwin wrote Origin of Species and after that Poets decided they were biologically determined and "Naturalism" guided their writing. This was more evident on the continent, and Zola, but Wilson finds examples of it in Victorian poetry as well. Then there was a reaction against Naturalism. Surely people are not as biologically determined as the Naturalists described and so there was what Wilson calls Symbolism. In America the Symbolists were "Poe, Hawthorne, Melville, Whitman and even Emerson." The reaction against the symbolists produced the writers Wilson concentrates on in Axel's Castle: "Yeats, Valery, T. S. Eliot, Marcel Proust, James Joyce, and Gertrude Stein." If you went to school when I did you were confronted with T.S. Eliot and Ezra Pound and their school of poetry -- influenced by the "New Criticism." This was important to American critics because the baton was being passed from Europe, primarily Britain, to America. Yes Eliot and Pound lived in Europe but they were American. The generation after theirs included Berryman, Lowell, Delmore Schwartz, Theodore Roethke, Randall Jarrell, and a number of other thoroughly American poets and we can note their similar styles. If you wrote back then, that is how you wrote. Berryman's Dream Songs was considered a success because he tied his short poems together and claimed a coherence which most critics were willing to grant him. You couldn't be a major poem unless you wrote a long poem. Also his voice, the ungrammatical Henry and his humorous Mr. Bones caught everyone's fancy. Sylvia Plath was another voice that stood out: feminine rage. I was impressed by it, and the feminists claimed it -- although biographers show that Sylvia was no feminist. Axel's Castle was written in 1931; so what were the American movements after that? Eric and some others will know that better than I, but I recall Lowell's Life Studies as supposedly inaugurating the "Confessional School" of poetry. Lowell apologists deny that he was primarily a Confessional poet but he did write some Confessional poetry and that was seen as the predominant point of view taken for a long while. You wrote about your life, your lover, your pain, etc. Sylvia Plath was near the beginning of it, perhaps, and Anne Sexton came out of a mental institution writing it. Meanwhile William Carlos Williams was marching to his own drummer, and it is here that we move toward the style Mike prefers, as Eric mentions. Williams didn't fit in with Eliot and Pound. He had the idea that poetry ought to sound like the speech of the common man (something the New Critics were appalled at). I read a biography of Williams too -- as well as most of his poetry -- pretty poor stuff in my opinion because I have a prejudice against poetry that sounds like prose. If it doesn't rise above prose then it isn't poetry. It seems to me that criticism, at least the criticism I have read, is also making that pronouncement; which bodes ill for WC Williams poetic immortality. Now as to Mike's particular prejudices, I first encountered them in philosophy. Great advances have been made in Hermeneutics. Heidegger is given some credit for the beginning. I was most interested in Collingwood, but it is most recognized in Gadamer. I am familiar with how Gadamer has influenced theology. Anthony C. Thistelton wrote The Two Horizons and later New Horizons in Hermeneutics. One of the Gadamerian discoveries was that you must take the reader into consideration in regard to a Text (Text here means any text or speech. It includes poetry.) But Gadamer never went as far as Mike does. Gadamer said that one needs to consider the prejudices (preconceptions) of the reader of the text if one's goal is 'understanding.' One cannot insist that the text be self-authenticating. The reader approaches the text with a set of prejudices and grapples toward understanding. His understanding can be said to be a combination of what the writer intended and the prejudices that he brought to the text. [Collingwood took this up in regard to the writing of History: The Idea of History] Nothing I read in Hermeneutics suggested that anyone would take this Hermeneutical movement to the reductio ad absurdum that Mike seems to be suggesting, i.e., that the reader's prejudices take precedence over the writers intentions. Lawrence