[lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 08:30:13 -0800
I just recently abandoned two theological discussion groups chaired by
pacifists. We debated Scripture. We debated pacifism. They ended up as
ambivalent as the people here. They believe in it -- sort of -- but if it
came right down to it they would defend themselves and their families. "Of
course we would defend our families!" They weren't quite sure they would
defend their nation but they understand how the national authorities would
go ahead and do that as part of their duty. Yes, one of the duties of a
nation's leaders is to protect a nation from threats.
I don't know how you can be in touch with the vast majority of Christians.
Speaking from the standpoint of the history of the church, pacifism has
always been a minority view. It is still a minority view in the U.S. It is
being abandoned in Europe and replaced by Islam in some places. There is a
resurgence of interest in Christianity in the Netherlands - a young people's
charismatic sort of thing - and perhaps elsewhere which may or may not be
pacifistic.
What African Christians are you referring to. The ones in Nigeria? The
ones in Sudan? I haven't seen much indication of pacifism. Ethiopia?
Where?
Pacifism in South America? Where? Catholics are not pacifistic. The
inroads of Marxism into South American Catholicism hasn't made it
pacifistic. The Pentecostals and Charismatics aren't pacifistic.
"The obvious logical fallacy being ad populum. Tsk, tsk, Lawrence, and with
all your talk of logic."
No, no. I wasn't presenting a syllogism -- merely drawing attention to the
absurdity of her assertion that my view was a flight of fancy, perhaps
thinking that I had come to this view entirely on my own, whereas it has
been the predominant view of the Church throughout it's history.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Phil Enns
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 7:53 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
Lawrence Helm wrote:
"Most Christians would agree with what I've written. Only a small minority
believes Christianity is pacifistic and that by reading passages in a
Fundamentalist (Literalist) manner that was never intended by the author."
Nonsense. You are out of touch with the vast majority of Christians in
their beliefs today, particularly in S. America and Africa. Furthermore,
those of us who explicitly identify with the pacifist tradition, could not
even be remotely considered fundamentalist/literalists. Ironically,
American fundamentalists usually identify the will of God with the national
interests of the U.S. and therefore are overwhelmingly militarists. I still
remember the shock of attending a Southern Baptist church that had a large
American flag prominently displayed beside the pulpit.
Lawrence concludes:
"Your "flight of fancy" assertion assumes (whether or not you know it) that
this minority of Christians has the right interpretation and the majority is
engaged in a false interpretation."
The obvious logical fallacy being ad populum. Tsk, tsk, Lawrence, and with
all your talk of logic.
Sincerely,
Phil Enns
Glen Haven, NS
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