[lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 18:56:26 -0800
Well, see here we go again. You make a vague statement and I respond to
what you've said. You accuse me of being obtuse and claim I should know
what you really mean.. I in turn look back at your words and fail to see
that I have been unjust to your words. And then the coup de grace of the
Lit-Ideas Leftists: Why don't you go off on a wild goose chase that is sure
to take you a couple of months. Actually, I used to go off on them years
ago thinking someone might not realize how much work is involve, but I gave
it up.
And now you say that unless I go off on this goose chase to find out
something you can't explain or describe that you will call me a hypocrite?
Is this the point where I usually brush you off, because I'm having a strong
desire to do that right now? But I'll resist it today. I'll help you out.
f by chance you are referring to the earlier debate which you may or may not
have been in regarding David Horowitz, Unholy Alliance, Radical Islam and
the American Left, perhaps I can simply repeat my view that Horowitz has
done some good work by drawing attention to such people as Ward Churchill.
These people side with the Islamists and oppose America on issue after
issue.
I may also have said that I've read enough of the Islamists to know what
their arguments are. I can recognize when someone is using similar
arguments to theirs. We don't need to go very far afield to find an
example. Consider the following excerpt from one of today's notes: "And the
same with Islam. Your allergy towards Islam won't let you see that their
monotheism is far purer than Christianity. No trinity, no god-as-human, no
virgin births. The core ideas of Islam is what Christianity should be. Islam
was developed out of Christian and Jewish ideas from 700 AD, well after the
original Christians had restructured their ideas under Greek philosophy.
"That's why Islam was so productive in the arts and sciences from 700 to the
1400s. The idea of a purely rationalist universe (where everything is
logical and rational because Allah is
rational) encourages science and mathematics. Thus Islamic mathematicians
invented algebra. Note the "al-" in algebra? As in al-qaeda? Alcohol.
Alchemy. Algorithm. Admiral. Azimuth.
Borax. Cipher. Magazine. And the most brilliant idea of all, upon which
modern science, mathematics, business, and technlogy is built: Zero. Without
zero, no binary mathematics. No computers.
All of these come from the Arabs. Look in the mirror, Lawrence. Recognize
the Islamic influence on the West? Will you finally embrace your Inner
Muslim and welcome him to dinner?"
I've read these arguments before - not word for word but in effect. I've
read them in Islamist writings. I'm not making a fuss now. Here is an
example for you if you want to disagree with me.
Lawrence
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Simon Ward
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 6:02 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
I'd like to swear at this point, but I realise it wouldn't advance the
discussion.
Lawrence you are being deliberately obtuse. You know that you have, on many
occasions, made presumtuous comments about how the left thinks. On numerous
occasions I have picked you up on these comments because they don't conform
to how I think and what, in my understanding, are the views of those on the
left. Converesely, I have never challenged anything in your personal history
and to say that I have done so is both libellous and illogical.
Since the archives are available on the net (I presume they are), perhaps we
could both conduct some research. I'll go off and find posts of yours that
make presumptuous comments about how people on the left think. Meanwhile,
you go off and find comments of mine that challenge your personal history.
Now I know for certain that this won't interest you in the slightest, but if
you turn down the invitation, I'll feel quite comfortable with my charge of
hypocracy and I'll be sure to remind you of it in the future.
What do you say Lawrence? Two days for the research?
Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 1:42 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
Very well, let's examine what you've said. You make a reference to some
past conversation, but provide no detail. You say I said something to the
effect that I had knowledge of how people on the Left think. Well, yes I
was on the Left myself for many years, read an enormous amount on the
subject and had friends who were Leftists. That is more than a presumption
but a statement of some of the facts from my personal history. Then you
say, "Many times, I, and others, have picked up this and challenged you.
Each time you brushed it off as unimportant . . . "
Hmmm. You say you challenged something in my personal history. Well, that
doesn't make any sense. Why would you do that? I'm afraid I don't know
what you're talking about.
Lawrence
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Simon Ward
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 5:31 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
[This is the third attempt for this post. This time I've cut the length]
[I sent this reply a couple of hours ago, but it seems to have become lost
in the ether. I expect the original will turn up a few minutes after this
one.]
Lawrence,
Since you appear to have made an effort, let me try again.
Many times over the past year or so you have presumed to have had knowledge
of how people on the left think, knowledge of their beliefs. Many times, I,
and others, have picked up on this and challenged you. Each time you brushed
it off as unimportant, illogical. I've heard you say that such assertions
are beyond argument. In case you haven't realised it, this approach annoys
people.
Now today you complain to Jeorg:
"You make up things and impose them on me as though I must believe what you
say I believe."
For this reason I called you a hypocrite.
Is that really so difficult to understand?
Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 9:23 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
No, I really don't, Simon, and you caught me in a serious mood today; so
I'll elaborate. I do have a serious problem "debating" people who flout the
rules of logic, and you admittedly fall in that category. Something is an
argument supported by appropriate premises or it is a mere assertion.
Perhaps you don't realize it, but I occasionally try to imagine premises
that might support your assertions, that is, might turn them into legitimate
arguments that I could therefore respond to, but you grow impatient with
such attempts and your assertions seem but a short step from insult and so I
abandon you as I have many times before. You are not unique. I have the
same sorts of problems with Irene & Andreas. And so you inevitably lose
your collective or individual tempers and swear and insult much as Joerg
recently did. Perhaps if I knew him a little better I wouldn't have been so
quick to take offense. I no longer take offense at you, Irene or Andreas;
which doesn't mean that I want to continue listening to your insults after
you give up all pretense of dialogue. I'll at least settle for the
pretence, usually, as witness the present note.
Lawrence
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Simon Ward
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:24 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
If you've no idea why I say you are hypocritical, then what's the use. But
just in case, read carefully the sentences I quoted, then try and think back
to mine and other complaints about what you've been saying about 'leftists'.
It's really not that difficult.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm
To: Lit-Ideas <mailto:Lit-Ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 6:28 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
Simon,
Or perhaps you mean the bizarre and insulting suggestion that you be
logical. I will take responsibility for that. Mea Culpa! Mea Maxima
Culpa!
Lawrence
_____
From: Lawrence Helm [mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 10:23 AM
To: 'lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: RE: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
Do you mean the things Sigmund Helmenfreud said to you? He shall have to
answer for himself. I don't speak for him. Don't get us confused.
Lawrence
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Simon Ward
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 9:47 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
Lawrence: "You say bizarre insulting things that don't relate to anything
I've said or believe. You make up things and impose them on me as though I
must believe what you say I believe."
Hypocrite!
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