[lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
- From: "Simon Ward" <sedward@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 02:02:12 -0000
I'd like to swear at this point, but I realise it wouldn't advance the
discussion.
Lawrence you are being deliberately obtuse. You know that you have, on many
occasions, made presumtuous comments about how the left thinks. On numerous
occasions I have picked you up on these comments because they don't conform to
how I think and what, in my understanding, are the views of those on the left.
Converesely, I have never challenged anything in your personal history and to
say that I have done so is both libellous and illogical.
Since the archives are available on the net (I presume they are), perhaps we
could both conduct some research. I'll go off and find posts of yours that make
presumptuous comments about how people on the left think. Meanwhile, you go off
and find comments of mine that challenge your personal history. Now I know for
certain that this won't interest you in the slightest, but if you turn down the
invitation, I'll feel quite comfortable with my charge of hypocracy and I'll be
sure to remind you of it in the future.
What do you say Lawrence? Two days for the research?
Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 1:42 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
Very well, let's examine what you've said. You make a reference to some past
conversation, but provide no detail. You say I said something to the effect
that I had knowledge of how people on the Left think. Well, yes I was on the
Left myself for many years, read an enormous amount on the subject and had
friends who were Leftists. That is more than a presumption but a statement of
some of the facts from my personal history. Then you say, "Many times, I, and
others, have picked up this and challenged you. Each time you brushed it off
as unimportant . . . "
Hmmm. You say you challenged something in my personal history. Well, that
doesn't make any sense. Why would you do that? I'm afraid I don't know what
you're talking about.
Lawrence
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From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Simon Ward
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 5:31 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
[This is the third attempt for this post. This time I've cut the length]
[I sent this reply a couple of hours ago, but it seems to have become lost in
the ether. I expect the original will turn up a few minutes after this one.]
Lawrence,
Since you appear to have made an effort, let me try again.
Many times over the past year or so you have presumed to have had knowledge
of how people on the left think, knowledge of their beliefs. Many times, I, and
others, have picked up on this and challenged you. Each time you brushed it off
as unimportant, illogical. I've heard you say that such assertions are beyond
argument. In case you haven't realised it, this approach annoys people.
Now today you complain to Jeorg:
"You make up things and impose them on me as though I must believe what you
say I believe."
For this reason I called you a hypocrite.
Is that really so difficult to understand?
Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 9:23 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
No, I really don't, Simon, and you caught me in a serious mood today; so
I'll elaborate. I do have a serious problem "debating" people who flout the
rules of logic, and you admittedly fall in that category. Something is an
argument supported by appropriate premises or it is a mere assertion. Perhaps
you don't realize it, but I occasionally try to imagine premises that might
support your assertions, that is, might turn them into legitimate arguments
that I could therefore respond to, but you grow impatient with such attempts
and your assertions seem but a short step from insult and so I abandon you as I
have many times before. You are not unique. I have the same sorts of problems
with Irene & Andreas. And so you inevitably lose your collective or individual
tempers and swear and insult much as Joerg recently did. Perhaps if I knew him
a little better I wouldn't have been so quick to take offense. I no longer
take offense at you, Irene or Andreas; which doesn't mean that I want to
continue listening to your insults after you give up all pretense of dialogue.
I'll at least settle for the pretence, usually, as witness the present note.
Lawrence
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Simon Ward
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:24 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
If you've no idea why I say you are hypocritical, then what's the use. But
just in case, read carefully the sentences I quoted, then try and think back to
mine and other complaints about what you've been saying about 'leftists'.
It's really not that difficult.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Helm
To: Lit-Ideas
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 6:28 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
Simon,
Or perhaps you mean the bizarre and insulting suggestion that you be
logical. I will take responsibility for that. Mea Culpa! Mea Maxima Culpa!
Lawrence
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lawrence Helm [mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 10:23 AM
To: 'lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: RE: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
Do you mean the things Sigmund Helmenfreud said to you? He shall have to
answer for himself. I don't speak for him. Don't get us confused.
Lawrence
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From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Simon Ward
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 9:47 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
Lawrence: "You say bizarre insulting things that don't relate to anything
I've said or believe. You make up things and impose them on me as though I
must believe what you say I believe."
Hypocrite!
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