Well Julie, here is the trouble you can get into by not developing an argument as I asked you to. The juxtaposition of this hymn with my note suggests that you believe that Christians are just as bad as Islamic Fundamentalists, or that this Hymn shows that Christians are just as warlike as Islamic Fundamentalists. Perhaps there are others, but these two occur to me first: that you intended something hostile to Christianity for reasons known only to yourself ? for they aren?t developed as an argument. Now if you had something benign in mind, something that hasn?t occurred to me, you should not blame me for not having thought of it. It is your responsibility to be clear. Who wrote this hymn and what is it about? A British preacher wrote it for school children. Baring-Gould wrote about this hymn, ?Whit-Monday is a great day for school festivals in Yorkshire. One Whit-Monday, thirty years ago, it was arranged that our school should join forces with that of a neighboring village. I wanted the children to sing when marching from one village to another, but couldn?t think of anything quite suitable; so I sat up at night, resolved that I would write something myself. ?Onward, Christian Soldiers? was the result. It was written in great haste, and I am afraid some of the rhymes are faulty. Certainly nothing has surprised me more than its popularity. I don?t remember how it got printed first, but I know that very soon it found its way into several collections. I have written a few other hymns since then, but only two or three have become at all well-known.? http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/n/onwardcs.htm So he wrote it for school children to march to but isn?t it about Militant Islamic type war as Julie seems to suggest? Any Christian will recognize that Baring-Gould takes his theme from Ephesians 6. Paul uses warfare as an analogy for the Christian?s fight against evil. Christian war against evil and not against physical forces. ?For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.? Ephesians 6:12 Lawrence _____ From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 12:25 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The Strident Voice of Defeat Onward, Christian Soldiers Text: Sabine Baring-Gould, 1834-1924 Music: Arthur S. Sullivan, 1842-1900 Tune: ST. GERTRUDE, Meter: 65.65 D with Refrain _____ 1. Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before. Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe; forward into battle see his banners go! Refrain: Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before. 2. At the sign of triumph Satan's host doth flee; on then, Christian soldiers, on to victory! Hell's foundations quiver at the shout of praise; brothers, lift your voices, loud your anthems raise. (Refrain) 3. Like a mighty army moves the church of God; brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod. We are not divided, all one body we, one in hope and doctrine, one in charity. (Refrain) 4. Crowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane, but the church of Jesus constant will remain. Gates of hell can never gainst that church prevail; we have Christ's own promise, and that cannot fail. (Refrain) 5. Onward then, ye people, join our happy throng, blend with ours your voices in the triumph song. Glory, laud, and honor unto Christ the King, this through countless ages men and angels sing. (Refrain) ========Original Message======== Subj: [lit-ideas] The Strident Voice of Defeat Date: 1/11/2007 1:59:06 P.M. Central Standard Time From: lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx To: Lit-Ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent on: I noticed quite a long time ago in Islamic theology that they believe God decides who wins a battle or a war. I also noticed that American politicians were paying little attention to that. During the Bush Sr. & Clinton Administrations the U.S. gave various Islamic groups reason to claim victory. Whether it was Al Qaeda or Saddam?s Iraq, they were encouraged and exerted themselves even more because Allah was on their side. Allah had given them the victory. We need to be especially careful of that now in Iraq. As Thomas Barnett said in the interview Brian posted, if we don?t do it right, we shall very likely have to go back. I?ve been reading the Brian-recommended The Looming Tower, Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11 by Lawrence Wright. Wright provides an excellent example of how defeat is viewed. On page 38 Wright writes, ?. . . The speed and decisiveness of the Israeli victory in the Six Day War humiliated many Muslims who had believed until then that God favored their cause. They had lost not only their armies and their territories but also faith in their leaders, in their countries, and in themselves. The profound appeal of Islamic fundamentalism in Egypt and elsewhere was born in this shocking debacle. A newly strident voice was heard in the mosques; the voice said that they had been defeated by a force far larger than the tiny country of Israel. God had turned against the Muslims. The only way back to Him was to return to the pure religion. The voice answered despair with a simple formulation: Islam is the solution. ? ?. . . The primary target of Egyptian Islamists was Nasser?s secular regime. In the terminology of jihad, the priority was defeating the ?near enemy? ? that is, impure Muslim society. The ?distant enemy? ? the West ? could wait until Islam had reformed itself. To Zawahiri and his colleagues that meant, at a minimum, imposing Islamic law in Egypt. ?Zawahiri also sought to restore the caliphate, the rule of Islamic clerics, which had formally ended in 1924 following the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire but which had not exercised real power since the thirteenth century. Once the caliphate was established, Zawahiri believed, Egypt would become a rallying point for the rest of the Islamic world, leading it in a jihad against the West. ?Then history would make a new turn, God willing,? Zawahiri later wrote, ?in the opposite direction against the empire of the United States and the world?s Jewish government.?? The Schmoos slogan, the more Islamists we kill, the more we create is of course nonsense. There is nothing like that in Islamic tradition. If we kill the Militant Islamic enemy and in the process defeat him, then Allah has somehow allowed this. It is inconceivable to them that Allah would favor infidels, so there must be some other reason. A variety of other reasons have been produced but the one we are most concerned about is the reasoning of Islamic Fundamentalism. Islamic Fundamentalists argue that the less than orthodox Muslims who were defeated deserved to be defeated. The way to achieve victory is to return to pure religion. What we see now in Iraq are many who fancy they adhere to Pure Religion fighting against us and our protégées in the new Iraqi state. Yeah, it?s expensive but we need to tread carefully now. If when we leave, the Islamic Fundamentalists can declare victory, that is if we don?t leave the present Iraqi government in a very strong position, then we shall be buying trouble for ourselves. As Barnett suggests, we shall probably have to go back again. We won?t save money by leaving prematurely. Lawrence