On 2004/08/28, at 2:54, Paul Stone wrote: > Personally, I have lost enthusiasm for composing long posts that > suffer the > following fate: > > 1) The main thesis is ignored, mainly because it is > > a) too difficult to discuss quickly; > b) might evolve into a flamewar; > > or {most frequently} > > c) other, more juicy aspects of an otherwise serious post are > picked up on and THOSE are what are the SAME-titled thread continues > about > > 2) as such, the main thesis is never answered > > 3) if the same issues are revisited, someone inevitably says "That was > discussed on [insert date here]" when in fact, it WASN'T "discussed" at > all. It was brought up. Discussed? No, not very much. > > So... what I think has happened is that the bar regulars are a bit > tired of > posting well-thought-out stuff when the responses are rarely > well-thought-out and even more rarely on topic. There is much good sense in what Paul writes here. But allow me to add a couple of thoughts concerning causes and a possible solution. Part of what's going on is, I believe, a natural process that affects many lists. What the list is first formed, the newcomers have a great deal to say to each other. Simply sorting out basic positions can be all sorts of fun. After a while, however, the regulars' positions become familiar, their list personalities solidify. To move beyond this point does require more thought and, worse for busy people, homework. It is here, I believe, that our usual approaches to list conversation fail us. Why? Because too many of us retain the conversational habits of school, in which it is assumed that everyone in a class is reading the same texts. In this context, a brief quote evokes a shared body of knowledge that allows the conversation to proceed. On-line, however, this assumption is utterly false. Some of us have read Wittgenstein, many of us have not. Damned few, I suspect, have Michael Chase's intimate knowledge of Greek and Roman classics in their original languages. McCreery's references to anthropologists who are household names to fellow anthropologists mean nothing to those who studied political science or botany, instead of anthropology. It would be foolish, indeed, for McCreery to cite Confucius, rattling off classical Mandarin tags. We are, in short, a loose network of people who severally share a few interests with a handful of others in the same network, but lack the common culture to make our citations and allusions work in the ways that we hope they will. What this suggests to me is that, as authors, we have to work a bit harder if we want to start and sustain serious discussion. We need to invest a bit more effort in describing the alternatives in the field in which we advance a thesis. And, when someone stumbles or goes astray, we must not say, "Go read X." If we believe that X is relevant, we should take the time to say why. I know that when people have taken this trouble, I have learned a great deal from both lit-ideas and its phil-lit predecessor. I have more than once found myself stimulated to go read X―not because someone has said, in effect, "This is your homework and you must be back with the answer I want tomorrow morning," but because I found myself persuaded that the work in question was, in fact, stimulating and important. Perhaps if we had a bit less of, "Read this and write a brief critique based on whatever prejudices you bring to the table" and a bit more, "I think this question is really important and here's why I like the way this author answers it," more of us might be seduced into probing more deeply. Just a thought. John L. McCreery The Word Works, Ltd. 55-13-202 Miyagaya, Nishi-ku Yokohama, Japan 220-0006 Tel 81-45-314-9324 Email mccreery@xxxxxxx "Making Symbols is Our Business" ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html