[lit-ideas] Re: The Peace of Westphalia
- From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "lit-ideas" <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:01:02 -0400
The original point was that nation states were invented, so to speak, with the
Treaty of Westphalia. In addition to carving out Europe, it set the precedent
for dividing up the M.E. and Africa into new, artificial entities. It was the
nation states that later fought horrific wars. Whether they fought them over
religion or something else is irrelevant. The Peace of Westphalia may have
proved that the Europeans are simply warlike people who need to fight war no
matter the cost. Take away the religion and they'll fight over something else.
It's still unclear what WWI was fought about. Before WWI and WWII there was
Napoleon, quite the hero, the military genius, hardly reviled, in European
history. If the Europeans aren't fighting now might be because the cost
finally got too high, especially given that the next war may involve nuclear
weapons.
The U.S. has (more accurately had) proudly taken on the mantle of warlikeness,
with our nearly half trillion dollar military budget, our military
Keynesianism, and our offensive wars. For better or for worse, that mantle has
gotten quite a few tatters and holes in it of late, and the hem's hanging. One
wonders who will pick it up next. It would be ironic if Iran (quite the
formidable foe they are), picked it up next and proceeded to parade around
peacefully in it, but that has yet to be seen. The nation state in the North
American hemisphere is on the retreat, with the newly emerging confederation of
the U.S. and Mexico, with Canada most likely coming into the picture at some
point. It's wait and see if uncreating a nation state will be more peaceful
than creating it. As far as religious wars per se in Europe, if the Balkans
are in Europe, then that was religiously motivated genocide of Christians
against Muslims.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 9/27/2006 5:58:53 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The Peace of Westphalia
joerg benesch:
I write that Catholics and Protestants would after the Peace of Westphalia
settle their differences by diplomacy rather than war. And you produce World
War I and a number of other wars not involving religious differences as
arguments against what I have written. You do realize that World War One, et
al were not fought for religious reasons, don?t you?
Catholics and Protestants fought wars against each other on a regular basis up
until the Peace of Westphalia. After that they settled their differences
peacefully. The subject Irene broached was the nature of the Peace of
Westphalia. I was taking issue with what Irene said. The Peace of Westphalia
did not cause additional wars. Read what it did. It settled things in such a
way that wars would never again in Europe have to be fought for religious
reasons. I never said that it eliminated all war. Yes wars would be fought
for other reasons in the future, but the Peace of Westphalia did not cause them
(unless you entertain the idea of German Imperialism, Socialism or
Fundamentalist Islam). Years later when the threats of Fascism and Communism
were eliminated it clicked into place as an important milestone. One can now
say in Europe that war has been eliminated: in Europe and in the Western
Democracies. We see it as comprising an important difference between the West
and
Islam.
I know of only three segments of thought that would agree with what Irene said.
Those who felt Germany was being inhibited from coming together as a great
empire, and the Socialists who thought that nation states would become
irrelevant when the dictatorship of the proletariat conquered Capitalism. One
can add the Islamist Ummah as defined by Sayyid Qutb. You and Irene imply that
the Peace of Westphalia, the treaty that ended the Thirty Years War caused the
wars that followed, but this is absurd. The peace of Westphalia eliminated war
for religious reasons in Europe. The only thing it hampered was German
Imperial ambitions, Socialism & Islamism. If you have evidence to the
contrary, produce it.
Here is another article from Wikipedia describing the political consequences of
the Peace of Westphalia -- also the consequences of the Thirty Years War which
was not something Irene mentioned and not something I was previously responding
to:
Political consequences
A result of the war, was the enshrinement of a Germany divided among many
territories, all of which, despite their membership of the Empire, had de facto
sovereignty. This significantly hampered the power of the Holy Roman Empire and
decentralized German power. It has been speculated that this weakness was a
long-term underlying cause of later militant German Romantic nationalism.
The Thirty Years' War rearranged the previous structure of power. The conflict
made Spain's military and political decline visible. While Spain was
preoccupied with fighting in France, Portugal ? which had been under Spanish
control for 60 years (since 1580) ? declared itself independent in 1640. The
House of Braganza became the new dynasty of Portugal, beginning with King John
IV. Meanwhile, Spain was finally forced to accept the independence of the Dutch
Republic in 1648, ending the Eighty Years' War. With Spain weakening and
Germany fractured and bled dry, France became the dominant power in Europe.
This defeat for Spain and imperial forces also marked the decline of Habsburg
power and allowed the emergence of Bourbon dominance.
From 1643?45, during the last years of the Thirty Years' War, Sweden and
Denmark fought in the Torstenson War. The result of that conflict and the
conclusion of the great European war at the Peace of Westphalia in 1648 helped
establish post-war Sweden as a force in Europe.
The edicts agreed upon during the signing of the Peace of Westphalia were
instrumental in laying the foundations for what are even today considered the
basic tenets of the sovereign nation-state. Aside from establishing fixed
territorial boundaries for many of the countries involved in the ordeal (as
well as for the newer ones created afterwards), the Peace of Westphalia changed
the relationship of subjects to their rulers. In earlier times, people had
tended to have overlapping political and religious loyalties. Now, it was
agreed that the citizenry of a respective nation were subjected first and
foremost to the laws and whims of their own respective government rather than
to those of neighboring powers, be they religious or secular.
The war had a few other, more subtle consequences:
The Thirty Years' War marked the last major religious war in mainland Europe,
ending large scale religious bloodshed in 1648. There were still religious
conflicts but no great wars.
The destruction caused by mercenary soldiers defied description (see
Schwedentrunk). The war did much to end the age of mercenaries that had begun
with the first landsknechts, and ushered in the age of well-disciplined
national armies.
In part because of a desire to avoid destructive wars based on religious
differences, separation of church and state was established in the United
States Constitution.
Lawrence
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