JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx saw the debaate and writes: God I'm tired. How old do you have to be for idealism to be killed entirely? ---- Well, George H. W. Hegel died on Nov. 14, 1831, and he was 97 -- and still an idealist. The last day of his life is warmly recorded by his pupil, Schopenhauer, in _The world as will and representation_. On his deathbed, Hegel pronounced the ultimate credo of optimism (in German -- Henninge may quote it, "Optimismus durch Tat Idealismus nicht Tod wurden, immer ich immer immer Optimist sein willen und wurd willen"). Cheers, JL ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html